too much brake pedal travel

HOW TO FIX EXCESSIVE BRAKE PEDAL TRAVEL

What Is Excessive Brake Pedal Travel?

Excessive brake pedal travel happens when you feel your pedal sinking rapidly while braking, or sitting lower than usual when activating your vehicle’s brakes. This can happen due to wobbly discs knocking pistons back or air in the braking system.

Performing DIY brake repair to fix excessive brake pedal travel can be a tedious task. Follow the steps below to diagnose and repair your sinking brakes.

How to Fix Excessive Brake Pedal Travel

1. Diagnose the Problem . To diagnose issues with the master cylinder, the first thing you need to do is remove the lines, install brass or plastic plugs into the outlets, and apply the brakes. What happens when you apply the brakes will tell you what issue your vehicle is having. You can continue this process of elimination by isolating each wheel.

2. Use Your Parking Brake. If you don’t typically engage your parking brake, the parking brake can be key in figuring out if your car is suffering from excessive brake pedal travel. If the parking brake doesn’t properly engage, that generally means a low pedal.

3. Bleed the Brakes. Bleeding your brakes is an important step in brake pedal travel repair and other brake issues. Use a jelly jar half full of brake fluid and a short hose to depress your brake pedal.

While depressing the pedal, rotate the star wheel to lose up the clearance. Then, go back one click when the wheel scrapes. It’s best to have a partner on hand when bleeding your brakes.

4. Bleed the Master Cylinders . After bleeding the brakes, bleeding the master cylinders is the next step. In traditional systems, you begin with the longest line in the circuit first, and go from the right rear, left rear, right front, and left the front. In diagonally split systems, the order is right rear, left front, left rear, and right front. Flush out the bleeder valves, and finally, remove the air from your master cylinder.

If you’re not sure which type of system your vehicle is or are unaware of the proper tools needed to fix excessive brake pedal travel, it’s best to bring your vehicle into Brake Works.

With two convenient locations with great weekend hours, getting proper brake maintenance is simpler than you think. Contact our team of certified specialists to schedule an appointment.

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Suspension - Brakes - Steering

Excessive Brake Pedal Travel

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My 1941 Chevy's brakes work fine, I just have too much free travel before the brakes start working. It's a power brake system with front disc's and back drums. The proportioning valve is on the frame well below the MC and booster. The pedal travel has been like this since I bought the car 3 years ago. I have replaced the brake fluid, bled the system, and adjusted the rear brakes with very little improvement. I recently taped 3 small nuts together and put them into the MC where the booster rod would go. It brought the pedal up but also applied the brakes so I took them out. Did I just prove that the brake pedal rod is too short? I looked at my brake pedal rod to see if it's adjustable, it doesn't seem to be unless the adjustable part is on the other side of the firewall and into the booster. Can I buy a longer brake rod? Do I have to lengthen the current brake rod? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Russ

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Sounds to me like your pedal travel is too long (under dash stop adjustment), or the pedal swing geometry is wrong, and the rod too long lifting the pedal to that high position. Do you need all that travel? I've seen brake pedals (hanging) with multiple holes to mount the push-rod to that would lower the pedal. On some GM power booster to MC plunger, there are different length push-rods as well, two sizes I'm aware of, that would effect plunger depth, too short and it doesn't push enough fluid, too long it bottoms out in the MC.

68NovaSS said: Sounds to me like your pedal travel is too long (under dash stop adjustment), or the pedal swing geometry is wrong, and the rod too long lifting the pedal to that high position. Do you need all that travel? I've seen brake pedals (hanging) with multiple holes to mount the push-rod to that would lower the pedal. On some GM power booster to MC plunger, there are different length push-rods as well, two sizes I'm aware of, that would effect plunger depth, too short and it doesn't push enough fluid, too long it bottoms out in the MC. Click to expand...

If the travel is really "free", i.e. the pedal/rod assembly does not contact the piston until the pedal is depressed some distance, then there are a couple choices: • Lengthen the push rod. • Adjust/modify the pedal stop. • Usually a power MC piston will have a shallow push rod hole, or will use a spacer to make it that way. So be sure the MC itself and the MC piston's push rod hole is compatible w/the pushrod you're using. If there IS contact w/the piston after just a little pedal movement, yet it still takes a lot of travel to get the brakes to engage, the master cylinder bore may be too small or the calipers/wheel cylinders too large or the pedal ratio is too high. Try the lower hole first (if you have one, that is).

Another thread reminded me- is the MC on the firewall or below the level of the calipers, or ?

cobalt327 said: Another thread reminded me- is the MC on the firewall or below the level of the calipers, or ? Click to expand...

Another thought, I came up against when putting all discs on my Nova, in the late '80's, some manufacturers came up with what they called a Quick Takeup MC, designed to work with brake systems where the pads didn't make full time contact with the rotor, they had a longer stroke to take up the slack before apply. It was to help with mileage requirements, cut drag. Any chance you have one?

If three nuts were too much, how about trying two? Or one? That might tell you how much to lengthen the rod.

?
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June 2019 Issue

Abnormal brake pedal diagnosis.

By Roy Dennis Ripple

A customer may complain of a brake pedal that ‘feels funny.’ It's your job to determine whether it’s due to aerated and/or contaminated brake fluid, excessive pedal travel or any other cause.

Vehicles normally respond to our commands in a fairly predictable manner. When we push on the accelerator, we go forward; when we turn the steering wheel, we change direction; and when we press the brake pedal, we stop. Of all the things we ask of our vehicles, “please stop” is the most important request. The brake pedal should give the driver a reassuring feel that says, “I got this.”

The brake pedal is the driver’s physical connection to the brake system, providing feedback that the driver uses to determine if there’s a problem with his brakes. Spongy, mushy and squishy are just a few of the terms that a customer might use to describe negative brake pedal feedback. Sometimes these concerns can be tricky to diagnose due to the numerous failures that can cause an unacceptable brake pedal feel.

The first step in diagnosing a low brake pedal concern is to determine the type of low brake pedal issue you’re dealing with, and if other symptoms are present. It might be a good idea to forgo the road if you’re uncomfortable with the function of the brakes and settle for a parking lot cruise instead.

Besides a low or mushy pedal, note if the brakes pull, squeak or pulsate. Does the pedal slowly drift to the floor when at a stop, or does it stop solid, but too close to the floor? Determine if one or more wheels are locking up, and note if the red or amber brake warning lamps are illuminated. All of this information will aid in your diagnosis.

A low brake pedal is always caused by either a hydraulic or a mechanical malfunction. When a mechanical malfunction is the cause, it’s due to a component moving past the range of motion for which it was designed. A good example of this is out-of-adjustment rear brake shoes. The universally accepted specification for brake shoe-to-drum clearance is .015 in. Every thousandth of an inch over spec causes excess brake pedal travel. Less than .025 in. travel at the master cylinder pushrod can equal about ½ in. at the pedal. Every little bit of unnecessary movement adds up.

Another example is a caliper piston that retracts too far into the bore when disengaged. Rear calipers with integral parking brakes are notorious for this. This causes the piston to travel further than designed to initiate contact between the inboard pad and the rotor. This excess travel can translate into a heap of movement at the brake pedal.

Hydraulic concerns present the biggest challenge in low brake pedal diagnosis. The smallest amount of air trapped anywhere in the system will have a big effect on brake pedal feel. Brake fluid converts the energy applied to the pedal into the force required to engage the brakes. This happens because fluids are compressible only to a very small degree, so any pressure applied to a liquid is transferred to all portions of the liquid and to the walls of the container it occupies. Since air is very compressible, air creates a nice, soft cushion for the fluid to lean on, ruining any chance of achieving solid hydraulic pressure.

Use the information you acquired during the road test to guide your initial visual inspection. Watch all the calipers move while an assistant pumps the brake pedal. Worn caliper pins or incorrectly installed brake pads can cause the caliper to flex side to side. This lateral movement uses up brake pedal travel. Be cautious of brake pads that are location-specific, or that need to line up with a locating pin during installation. If these pads are incorrectly installed, they’ll cause the caliper to flex.

While you’re eyeballing the calipers, make sure they’re on the correct side. When a caliper is installed on the wrong side, the bleeder valve will be below the inlet. Since air rises to the top, good luck bleeding that caliper. Check meticulously for an external leak. Brake fluid leaks don’t always present themselves as drops that puddle in the driveway. Just a little seepage at a fitting can cause big trouble at the pedal. Don’t forget to look behind the wheel cylinder boots while checking for leaks; there should be no fluid there.

During your visual inspection, also watch the rubber hoses as a helper pumps the brake pedal. Look for a bulge in the hose that appears under pressure, then disappears when the pedal is released. I’ve seen hoses twist while pressurized due to a defect at the union where the rubber hose meets the metal crimp. Excess hose movement causes excess pedal movement.

Most negative brake pedal feedback issues fall into one or more of the following categories:

•A pedal that stops hard at the bottom but has excess play at the top is usually the result of a master cylinder or pushrod issue. •A pedal that’s spongy or mushy can be caused by air intrusion, contaminated brake fluid or a mechanical component moving beyond its designed range of motion. •A pedal that continues to move toward the floor when applied is caused by a loss of hydraulic pressure, which can be caused by an external leak or an internally leaking component. Contaminated brake fluid can also cause a brake pedal to drift downward.

An occasional exception to these rules—there’s always an exception—is the antilock brake system (ABS) hydraulic control unit (HCU). A defective HCU will create symptoms that feel like air intrusion or a pressure loss and can really complicate your diagnosis.

Let’s look at a brake pedal that stops hard at the bottom but has excess play at the top. A good way to determine if there’s too much pushrod travel is to loosen the master cylinder-to-power booster attaching hardware. Have an assistant hold the loose master cylinder firmly against the booster while you slowly apply the brake pedal. Determine how far the pedal moves before your helper feels the push on the master cylinder. Excessive pushrod play could be caused by a weak or broken master cylinder bore spring that’s not returning the piston all the way to the back of the bore, or it could be a pushrod or booster issue. Remember, a little play at the pushrod is a lot at the pedal.

Many automakers use an adjustable pushrod. This adjustment is set at the factory and shouldn’t have to be messed with. If you need to adjust the pushrod, something’s wrong.

We once serviced a Ford Escape with excessive brake pedal travel at the top. Loosening the master cylinder determined that we lost about 3 in. of pedal travel before the piston moved. We removed the master cylinder and discovered that the small dome-shaped piece that was pressed into the end of the pushrod, which fits into the master cylinder bore, was missing, and laying at the bottom of the booster. This added almost ¼ in. of travel to the pushrod.

Diagnosing a spongy, mushy brake pedal issue can sometimes be frustrating as well as time-consuming. Here’s an example of how important the initial road test is when diagnosing a spongy brake pedal.

While we were road-testing a vehicle with a low, spongy brake pedal, we noticed that the brakes pulled to the left. That told us that the left front and right front calipers were not applying evenly. Using the results from the road test, we started our visual inspection at the front calipers. Both front wheels were spinning freely and both stopped spinning when the brakes were applied. There was no excessive movement in either caliper or hose during brake application, and the brake pads were a healthy 9mm, with nice, beefy rotors.

Since the road test suggested there was an issue with the front brakes, it only made sense to check the front calipers for air. We removed a nice pocket of air from the right front caliper, which temporarily fixed the pedal. I say “temporarily” because we found no reason for that caliper to be holding air, as there was no sign that it was recently disassembled. Caliper piston seals and wheel cylinder cup seals can replicate a one-way check valve. Fluid can’t get out but air can get in. So we replaced the caliper. This scenario reinforces the importance of gathering information during the road test. If we didn’t feel the brake pull, we wouldn’t have started our diagnosis at the front calipers.

Unfortunately, it’s not always that simple. If you’re faced with a low, mushy pedal and the visual inspection yields no clues, it’s time to break out the blockers. Blocking off sections of the brake system (not individual components) is the surest way to find the cause of the problem. Thexton Manufacturing makes a master cylinder plug kit (Part No. 803P) that can also be used on HCUs. It’s important to use quality plugs when blocking brake pressure. A small leak at a plug will yield erroneous results.

Always start by blocking the master cylinder ports. If the master cylinder is good, the pedal should be rock hard—barely moving—with the ports blocked. If the brake pedal moves at all, the master cylinder is leaking internally, there’s a pushrod issue or the brake fluid is contaminated.

If the master cylinder is good, most diagnostic procedures recommend blocking the HCU ports next. The problem is that the HCU tends to be hard to access, and the fittings are usually tough to get a wrench on due to their proximity to each other. So in the spirit of streamlined diagnosis, it makes sense to check the easier-to-access components first, which would be the wheels.

Block each wheel individually at the steel line, before the rubber hose; this way, you’re taking the hoses, calipers and wheel cylinders out of the equation. Do not block off the calipers by using vise grips to crimp the rubber hoses. Damaging a rubber brake hose could cause it to work like a one-way valve, allowing pressure to be applied to the caliper but not to bleed off, causing a perpetually applied brake caliper. The Thexton block-off kit contains only male fittings, and you need a female fitting to block the steel line. Attaching a brass union to the male plug works great. Test the pedal after blocking each wheel. We found a right rear caliper on a Ford Explorer that was causing a low, spongy pedal using this method. We never did identify the actual cause of the caliper malfunction. It wasn't leaking, the pins were sturdy, no air, all looked fine. But the pedal came right up when we blocked it off. We replaced it; problem fixed.

If you find no problem at the wheels, you’ll need to access the HCU. It’s best to block all the outlet ports on the HCU at the same time. This is a lot of work just for a diagnosis, but at this point there’s very little choice.

If the pedal is still low with all the HCU outlet ports blocked, before passing sentence on the HCU, perform a service bleed. HCUs seem to be a favorite resting place for stowaway air. Even if you have no reason to believe that the brake system was opened to atmosphere, you should bleed the HCU before condemning it.

ABS service bleed procedures are performed with a scan tool and vary by manufacturer. Some procedures are as easy as pressing the brake pedal a few times and clicking a button on the scan tool; others will require you to open bleeder valves, which makes a real mess on the shop floor. Whatever the procedure, it’s very important to bleed all the wheels after performing an ABS service bleed.

I started using a brake pressure bleeder a couple of years ago and I’ll never go back to the old pedal-pumping method. Pressure bleeders work great. They attach to the master cylinder reservoir in place of the cap and put the brake system under consistent pressure. The biggest advantage of this—besides not needing an assistant—is that you can open a bleeder valve and just let it flow, pushing all of the air out of a line from the master cylinder to the wheel cylinder or caliper with just one turn of a bleed er valve. If you don’t already have a pressure bleeder, I highly recommend getting one.

It’s important to properly benchbleed a new master cylinder before installation. It can be tough to bleed the air from a master cylinder once it’s installed on the vehicle. Mount the master cylinder firmly in a vise and screw bleeder fittings into the outlet ports. Attach hoses to the fittings, with the other ends of the hoses in the reservoir, submerged in brake fluid. An effective kit for bench-bleeding a master cylinder comes with check valves, which allow the air to be pushed out while not allowing air to get sucked in on the back stroke. Thexton, Dorman, NAPA and others offer such kits.

If you don’t have check valves for the hoses, the procedure will still work. Since the hoses are submerged in brake fluid, fluid from the reservoir rather than air will be pulled back into the master cylinder. The problem is that air that doesn’t make it to the end of the hose gets sucked back into the cylinder on the back stroke. Check valves prevent this from happening.

With the hoses in place, slowly push the piston into the master cylinder, then allow the piston to return to the rest position. You’ll see air bubbles exit the master cylinder through the clear hoses. Do not push the piston past its normal range of motion; doing so can damage the piston seals, rendering the master cylinder useless. When using check valves, all the air is gone within seven to ten strokes. Be sure that the fittings are tight, as a poor seal at a fitting will pull air into the master cylinder.

The heart of a hydraulic brake system is the fluid, and when that goes bad, so does the pedal. Most automotive applications use DOT 3, DOT 4 or DOT 5.1 fluid, all of which are glycol-ether-based. DOT 5 is silicone-based and should not be mixed with glycol-based brake fluids. The most important property of brake fluid is that it maintains a stable viscosity and compressibility throughout its entire operating temperature range—very cold to very hot. The negative property of brake fluid is that it’s hygroscopic, which means it absorbs water.

Water in brake fluid greatly lowers its boiling point. The dry boiling point of DOT 3 is 401ºF. The wet boiling point, defined by the temperature at which the fluid boils after absorbing 3.7% water by volume, is 285ºF. Big difference. Since brake fluid temperatures at the calipers can easily exceed 200ºF, this could be a problem. The fact that water freezes also tends to complicate things a bit. This is why it’s recommended that brake fluid be changed every two years.

When brake fluid is contaminated with water it turns a darker color. If the brake fluid looks contaminated, or if you’re diagnosing a vehicle that’s more than two years old, recommend a brake fluid flush. Use a pressure bleeder or brake fluid flush machine to push all the old fluid out through the bleeder valves. Be sure to check all the bleeder valves before selling the brake flush. If you think the valves are going to break off, you need to know this beforehand.

A couple of more things: A customer might describe an intermittent false ABS activation event as a low brake pedal. But if the pedal feels fine to you, check for DTCs in the ABS module. Also, contaminated fluid can damage an HCU. Brake fluid is designed to protect metal brake parts against corrosion, an attribute it loses when weakened by water. So when replacing an HCU, it’s imperative to flush the fluid.

It seems that the furthest thing from anyone’s mind as he’s driving down the road is the brake system. The song on the radio or the setting of the climate control system occupy more brain space than the brakes do. So maybe problems like a low brake pedal and/or noisy brakes should be looked upon as an important safety warning. It’s the brake system whispering, “Hey, remember me?” to the procrastinator who should plan on getting his brakes checked very soon.

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Honda CR-V Soft Brake Pedal: Causes + How to Fix

Dealing with a soft brake pedal on your Honda CR-V can be dangerous and frustrating. You should absolutely not drive your vehicle until you track down the problem.

While tracking down the problem sounds daunting, there’s a lot you can do at home to get a hard pedal.

One possible cause of a soft brake pedal in the Honda CR-V could be air trapped in the brake lines. Your brake system should remain closed, meaning air shouldn’t get inside.

However, air can get trapped in the brake lines, especially after service. Another potential issue could be related to the ABS pump. A failing ABS pump can sometimes cause a low brake pedal.

Causes of Soft Brake Pedal in Honda CR-V

Brake Fluid Leak (Air in the System)

One possible cause of a soft brake pedal in your Honda CR-V could be a brake fluid leak. If the leak occurs in the brake lines or connections, air will enter the lines.

Unlike brake fluid, air can be compressed, creating a spongy or soft pedal feel. The soft feeling is air compressing before the brake fluid moves.

To determine if there is a brake fluid leak, carefully inspect for any indications of dampness or fluid presence in the vicinity of brake lines, fittings, and calipers. These areas are likely to be the source of the issue.

If you’ve recently installed a new master cylinder in your CR-V, you’ll need to bench-bleed it to remove all the air from the system.
A blown brake line can cause a very soft pedal. You will get the brake warning light if the pressure is too low. There will be brake fluid everywhere under the vehicle, and the change would have been instant.
Open the master cylinder. Is the fluid level in the normal spot? Is it low? Do you see any air bubbles in? Tap it gently with a socket extension and see if any air bubbles rise.

Defective Master Cylinder

A defective brake master cylinder can be another reason for a soft brake pedal in the Honda CR-V. When you press the pedal down, it is responsible for generating hydraulic pressure for the brake system.

If it is bad, the brake pedal might feel soft or spongy.

Inspect the master cylinder for signs of damage or wear, and consider replacing it if necessary. If you need to replace it, don’t forget to bench-bleed it.

Worn Out Brake Pads

Worn brake pads can also contribute to a soft brake pedal because there’s more distance for the piston to travel when pressing the pad into the rotor.

Check your Honda CR-V’s brake pads for signs of wear and replace them if needed to ensure proper brake performance. This can easily be done at home by pulling one of the front wheels.

Poorly Adjusted Rear Drums (If Equipped)

If your Honda CR-V is equipped with rear drum brakes, poor adjustment can lead to a soft brake pedal.

Inadequate drum brake adjustment can cause the shoes to be too far from the drum and, in turn, lead to a spongy pedal. Properly adjusting the rear drum brakes can alleviate this issue.

Most drums or self-adjusting when stopping in reverse.

Compromised Brake Booster

A compromised brake booster can also result in a soft brake pedal. The brake booster assists in applying force to your CR-V’s master cylinder, and a failure in this component can lead to reduced braking performance.

Inspect the brake booster for signs of damage or malfunction, and consider replacement if needed.

What Happens When You Push The Brake Pedal (Understanding the Braking System)

When you push the brake pedal in your Honda CR-V, you initiate a series of events in the braking system that helps to slow down or stop your vehicle.

Understanding the basic principles of this system can help you diagnose common issues, such as a soft brake pedal.

At first, pressing the brake pedal creates mechanical force, which is transferred to your CR-V’s master cylinder. The master cylinder then transforms that force into hydraulic pressure within the brake lines.

This hydraulic pressure activates the brake calipers, which in turn, apply force to the brake pads. The brake pads make contact with the brake rotors, generating friction and heat, ultimately slowing down the wheel and your vehicle.

Your Honda CR-V’s brake system operates efficiently due to incompressible brake fluid that transmits 100% of the force applied to the brake pedal to all four brakes. However, when there’s air in the system, it becomes compressible and leads to a soft brake pedal.

Keep in mind that properly functioning brake fluid is critical to the overall operation of the braking system. Over time, brake fluid can become contaminated or lose its effectiveness, which can lead to a soft or spongy brake pedal.

Regularly checking and replacing brake fluid, as recommended by your vehicle’s manufacturer, will help maintain the efficiency of your CR-V’s braking system.

Maintaining the condition of brake components such as rotors, pads, and calipers is also important, as worn or damaged parts can negatively impact the performance of the braking system.

Regular inspections and timely replacement of these components can help prevent soft brake pedal issues and ensure the safety of you and your passengers.

Diagnosing Soft Brake Pedal Issues

When you experience a soft brake pedal in your Honda CR-V, it could be due to several causes. Firstly, make sure you inspect the brake lines for any air bubbles. Air in brake lines can lead to a spongy pedal feeling and affect fluid circulation.

To diagnose common brake issues, follow these steps:

Check for air in brake lines: Start by bleeding the brake lines to release any trapped air. It’s a good idea to perform a brake fluid change if it hasn’t been done recently, as old fluid can contribute to the issue.
Examine the master cylinder: A worn or leaking master cylinder could also be the culprit. Look for visible brake fluid leaks and ensure the brake warning light is not on. If there’s a leak or the master cylinder is in poor condition, it should be replaced.
Inspect brake pads and rotors: Improperly installed or worn brake pads and rotors can cause your CR-V’s brake pedal to feel soft. Check your front and rear brake pads, ensuring they are in good condition and installed correctly.

Remember, addressing any issues as they arise will help you maintain your Honda CR-V’s braking system more efficiently and ensure your safety on the road.

Prevention and Maintenance Recommendations

To maintain optimal performance and prevent soft brake pedal issues in your Honda CR-V, follow these recommendations.

Regular brake fluid replacement: One of the major causes of a spongy brake pedal is air in the brake lines. To prevent this issue, be sure to replace your brake fluid as recommended by Honda.

Inspect brake lines: Over time, rubber brake lines can degrade and cause a soft brake pedal. Regularly inspect your brake lines for cracks, bulges, or other signs of wear. Replace them as needed to maintain proper braking performance.

Bleed your brakes: Whenever you service your brakes or replace the brake fluid, be sure to bleed the brake system. This process removes air bubbles from the lines, ensuring a firm pedal feel.

Proper brake pad installation: When changing your brake pads, be sure to follow proper installation procedures to avoid air entering the brake system. Check your owner’s manual or consult a professional technician for guidance.

Addressing master cylinder issues: In some cases, a malfunctioning brake master cylinder can cause a soft pedal feel. If you suspect a problem with the master cylinder, have it inspected and replaced by a qualified technician.

By following these preventive measures and conducting regular maintenance on your Honda CR-V’s braking system, you can help ensure optimal performance, safety, and longevity.

Should You Drive Your Honda CR-V With a Soft Brake Pedal?

It is generally not advisable to drive with a soft brake pedal , as it can pose serious safety risks for you and other road users. A soft brake pedal may not provide sufficient braking power, leading to longer stopping distances and potentially causing accidents.

While it may not always be an immediate emergency, it is crucial to address the issue as soon as possible.

To ensure your safety and maintain your vehicle’s optimal performance, it’s best to consult a professional mechanic or a Honda service center when you notice a soft brake pedal.

They will have the knowledge and tools to inspect your vehicle, determine the root cause, and recommend the appropriate repairs or adjustments. Don’t put yourself or others at risk by driving with a compromised braking system; address any issues immediately and prioritize your safety on the road.

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Honda Odyssey Generation Forums
2011 - 2017 Odyssey

Brake pedal travels too far before engaging brakes

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2012 Odyssey It started when my wife had to do a very hard brake to avoid an accident. After that, she noticed that the pedal travelled much further but was still able to stop ok. It was just that the pedal has to travel much further before the brakes start to engage. I checked all the brake system for leaks and found none. I did notice the rear pads were on their last leg so replaced them but there was little impact. I got out the code scanner and got the following codes for the ABS: 83-1 PGM-FI Malfunction 86-1 F-Can Communication Malfunction 61-1 Battery Voltage Low 62-1 Battery Voltage High I also validated that steering angle and speed sensors are all working ok (good data to ABS / VSA). I was thinking one of two paths but wanted to get some advice if anyone has seen this before or has further troubleshooting advice. 1) Bleed brakes to see if I have air somewhere. I don't see a leak but ? 2) Change ABS module. This option scares me as I can't find anything saying if it needs relearned or not. Any and all help is appreciated! UPDATE: I changed the brake fluid which was 7 years old, changed the Master Cylinder, and installed new front pads. I still had the issue. I tapped on the ABS controller while bleeding the brakes. Still had the issue. Final action to solve the problem was driving down a country gravel road and locking up the brakes to engage the ABS. This bled the ABS and all is happy! Looking back, I probably could have simply changed the fluid and bled the ABS through braking. The brake pads and master cylinder were not the issue but doesn't hurt to have new parts on the car for many more years of service.

Any recent brake or engine work (even months ago). When was the last time the brake fluid changed. Check that brake reservoir is full. It won't hurt to double check for air in the brake line. Does the pedal get firmer if you pump it?

Hello. No recent brake or engine work. Only recent event was locking up ABS to avoid a collision. Brake fluid was changed in 2015 so about 7 years ago. Brake reservoir is full. Pedal does not get much firmer with pumping of the pedal.

fluid change is due if it was done 7 years ago. brake fluid is hygroscopic, meaning it absorbs moisture over time, you can check it with a tester, then change it with some high quality dot 4 and see if the pedal firms up.

^^ This. Your brake pedal will go spongy in a hard stop when there is too much moisture absorbed into it. Under normal (not panicked) stops, there may not be enough heat generated to get the water to vaporize but when you slam on the brakes, all that kinetic energy that's converted into heat can't get out of the brakes and into the surrounding air quickly enough and it heats the brake fluid (and water) instead. Vapor compresses easily and so your pedal goes soft. Brake fluid is supposed to be changed every three years regardless of mileage. Try that first.

Yes change it or get it changed...... It's the number 1 neglected fluid on almost any vehicle. Your lines, seals and abs circuit will thank you.

Thank you. Will replace brake fluid and see what that does. I noticed the manual calls for DOT 3. Any reason to use DOT 4 instead? I had used that on motorcycles before but never on a car.

Get Honda brand dot 3

So I flushed the fluid and don't have any notable difference... I sucked out as much as I could from the master cylinder before filling it up then bled at each caliper (furthest from m. cylinder to closest) until the fluid was clear. The fluid was pretty nasty. I checked for codes again and don't have any ABS codes now. I'm considering to go ahead and change the front brake pads and check the caliper slide pins. Another note: I noticed that the pedal does get firmer as I pump the pedal...

HoosierMuscle said: Another note: I noticed that the pedal does get firmer as I pump the pedal Click to expand...

I've got a MC coming today. Will update on what I find.

I’m not sure if this will matter in your situation, but I believe the Honda’s service manual bleeding procedure is the opposite of what you had mentioned. I believe when I did my fluid flush, I started at the closest to the master cylinder, and went from there.

How much brake fluid do I BLEED

oldskewel said: My guesses: brake fluid was neglected, needed to be flushed (completely replaced, end to end, finishing with bleeding the air out) The OBD2 codes were remnants of things past. If you had cleared them, driven, and checked again to see what returns (what one should always do before worrying too much), you might end up with no codes. The main symptom - excessive pedal travel following an ABS panic stop ... there could have been an air bubble in the ABS block, sitting there, not causing problems since it was contained within the block. Following ABS activation during the panic stop, the air was released and is now in your brake lines. That is all it takes to create excessive pedal travel. Basically as the pedal is traveling, the brake systems is taking that work and compressing the bubble, and the pressure of the fluid can't increase more than the pressure of that bubble, so it feels like there is no pressure and no brake until that bubble is compressed. Pumping the brake will help address that, but does not solve the problem. A proper brake bleeding would solve that problem, but there may be more air in the ABS block. Takes some tools or tricks to get that air out. I believe Honda specifies DOT3 rather than DOT4. They are compatible with one another (mixing is not a problem). Either will work fine. I use them interchangeably in most of my cars. The main difference is for the wet vs. dry boiling points. Each one will be marginally better than the other in certain conditions. Google on details if you're interested, but either will be fine. I agree on the thought that an MC failure is not the problem - it almost never is, although it is very often thought to be a problem, and sometimes due to the following effect, the legend is propagated ... Good that you are working on this yourself. If someone had this situation, they might take it to the dealer, have one or more of the MC, pads, rotors, fluid, ABS block, and ECU replaced, and the fluid properly flushed, enjoy the free coffee and WiFi while waiting ... and would come back on here and report that, leaving people to think all that stuff was actually needed. Click to expand...

Changed front pad (not really needed yet) and found one front caliper pin froze up. I got it loosened up and re-lubed and re-installed. I then went ahead and changed the master cylinder. I bench bled it then I bled each caliper in the order suggested by Honda (front left, front right, rear right, rear left). No change in brake performance after that.... it feels like I have air somewhere. The bleeding process I'm using is a rubber hose on the bleeder screw and it being placed above the caliper and into a container of brake fluid. I have a 2nd person pump the brakes and keep the brake pad held down while I tighten the bleeder screw. We keep the master cylinder full the entire time to not introduce new air. Any ideas? Is there a need to bleed the ABS unit after changing the master cylinder? I'm about to start bleeding the brakes again ...

I just pulled the air filter box to get to the ABS unit. I cracked the incoming lines and pressed the brake to make sure I had oil there. I then planned on cracking the 4 lines coming off of the ABS unit to bleed them there but unfortunately only 1 of 4 would come loose without rounding over (I used a flair wrench and flared crows foot with no success). I then proceeded to bleed the brakes again in the order recommended by Honda and I took a small rubber pallet and tapped the top and sides of the ABS unit to work out any air that might brake free from vibration. After all that, I'm still feeling the same spongy pedal that I started with ....

Just checking here - when you crack open the fittings, you're doing it while the fluid is pressurized, right? I do it with the whole brake system pressurized using the Motive pressure bleeder. But having a helper with a foot on the brake will do it as well, just less conveniently and reliably. They need to be pressing on the pedal during the whole time between you cracking open the fitting, and closing it back up. Sorry if that is obvious. Not sure what to do about being unable to get fittings loosened. Get a better wrench, that fits tightly on all 5 corners (flare wrench), perhaps yours is not as tight as it should be? I know it's a solid piece of steel, but it may not have been designed or manufactured with sufficient accuracy. Good move on the tapping with rubber mallet - no harm, and might help.

maybe you have a caliper sucking that's air, I think it was mentioned in one of the earlier threads. youre firing the parts cannon at this, which will eventually solve the issue but not economically.

oddly, brake fluid is the best rust breaker, so put a few drops on the topside of the threads for the fitting.

That procedure to activate ABS should have activated it to mix fluid (and air if it exists) within the ABS system with the rest of the brake system. Good to do to allow more complete flushing and bleeding. As said above, that would allow any air in the ABS block to escape, allowing a subsequent flushing / bleeding procedure to get it completely out of your system. But I don't think it should have instantly fixed your problem (as your post seems to suggest happened) unless your ABS has / had an actual problem. It could be that somehow your ABS had been locked in a partially open state, causing the soft pedal, and by activating it you allowed it to get back as it should be, firming the pedal. If it were my car, I would buy an OBD2 tool that can activate ABS, and thoroughly use it to flush and test the ABS system. Could be that a lot of exercise can get it going as it should. But if you do nothing, it could be that you'll have this problem again at some point.

I too have battled a spongy pedal on my 2012 Honda Odyssey TE (odometer 220K). The brake system had been flushed by dealer (nasty fluid) and pedal improved but slowly over the course a several months gotten worse. I seem to recall watching a youtube video "One Way to Deal with a Spongy Brake Pedal - EricTheCarGuy" where he mentions having to do this for Honda when he was a tech that had a spongy pedal after proper bleeding. Eric mentioned that for some Honda's going out to an unpopulated area and locking the brakes up seems to firm the pedal up. I recently went out and tried it myself on a gravel road and it did improve the pedal feel. @oldskewel Thoughts about this? If the system had air in the ABS/VSA then activating it would just move the air down the line right? Why would it firm the pedal up, then get spongy again unless like you mentioned above leaky internal issue? Not sure if linking to YT is allowed but here it is:

Stauffer said: I too have battled a spongy pedal on my 2012 Honda Odyssey TE (odometer 220K). The brake system had been flushed by dealer (nasty fluid) and pedal improved but slowly over the course a several months gotten worse. I seem to recall watching a youtube video "One Way to Deal with a Spongy Brake Pedal - EricTheCarGuy" where he mentions having to do this for Honda when he was a tech that had a spongy pedal after proper bleeding. Eric mentioned that for some Honda's going out to an unpopulated area and locking the brakes up seems to firm the pedal up. I recently went out and tried it myself on a gravel road and it did improve the pedal feel. @oldskewel Thoughts about this? If the system had air in the ABS/VSA then activating it would just move the air down the line right? Why would it firm the pedal up, then get spongy again unless like you mentioned above leaky internal issue? Not sure if linking to YT is allowed but here it is: Click to expand...

No I did not. I was not sure if my short bursts on the ABS would be enough to eject any bubble from the unit. I had actually ordered an OBD2 scanner that supports the "ABS bleeding" capability. But is is on a slow UPS truck which is why I tried the gravel road method first. I guess I would like to have some confidence any bubble was out of the ABS block before I go through the chore of bleeding again. Hence I asked about the duration of the ABS activation.

The OEM shop manual for my 05 TL says "if pedal is still soft after bleeding, go out and perform 2 ABS activated stops. Then perform another brake bleed". I'm having a similar problem on that car but have yet to do this stupid double bleed.

Interesting. Here is what I tried. I went out and did about 6 ABS activated stops on gravel. Each one lasted about 3 seconds of ABS operation. I had ordered a Foxwell OBD2 scanner with "ABS bleed" mode so I waited for that to arrive. I ran the Foxwell and then did another brake bleed. This still did not solve the problem - brakes are as squishy as ever.

^Well that's a major dissapointment.

This ^^^ I'm on semi metallics all around now (rockauto cheapies) and the van stops solid now. everybody raves about them, but im not impressed with the akebono ceramics lifespan or stopping performance for these heavy vehicles. have the akebono's on other small vehicles in the fleet and no issues. went through multiple sets of pulsation and poor braking performance on the van, to realize brake dust and better braking are worth it.

I slapped on the Element3s and really like them. I did leave the stock rotors on so I am getting some shudder when hard braking at high speeds so I ended up getting new Raybestos rotors and new Element3 pads so they’re both brand new. I’ll keep the 3s I currently have on as spares but yeah. First time a pad slap has gotten me. Never not made it until now.

I'm running the later 2016 rotors (centric premium) on my 2012 with centric posi-quiet "extended wear" semi-metallic. Pedal feel is good. Only noticeable weirdness is they tend to creek just as you come to a very slow stop (like creeping into the garage). Just replaced these pads the other day. Simple pad-slap and brief bed-in. Strange thing is OEM pads in a 12 MDX make the exact same creek sound.

Hey Muscles, did you need to bleed the brake lines after activating the ABS?

Hey Muscles, did you need to bleed the brake lines after activating the ABS? Update: I bled the brakes, greased the pins, changed the MC, changed front pads & springs and same issue. It got better after activating the ABS several times and did a brake bleed. Lots of bubbles. Need to do this 2 more times.

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How Car Brakes Work and How to Tell When They Go Bad

B rakes are your vehicle's most important safety system. Under normal conditions, a driver exerts about 70 pounds of force on the brake pedal (about the same amount of effort it takes to bite into a steak) to bring thousands of pounds of moving metal and plastic to a quick and controlled stop. A flawless brake system is absolutely crucial to driver, passenger and pedestrian safety.

Read on to learn how a modern automotive brake system works and some of the most common brake system problems .

What Are the Different Types of Car Brakes?

All modern vehicles come with hydraulic brakes. Hydraulic brake systems pressurize and transfer brake fluid to the wheel brakes assemblies. The brake assemblies (disc or drum) use the pressurized fluid to apply the brake friction material that generates the friction needed for braking.
Anti-lock brakes use wheel speed sensors, a computer control module and an electro-hydraulic actuator to prevent hydraulic brake systems from locking up during hard braking.
Working in conjunction with hydraulic brakes, hybrid vehicles feature a regenerative braking system that uses the electric driveline to initially slow a car. The hydraulic brakes ultimately bring the vehicle to a stop.
Parking brakes , independent of the hydraulic or regenerative braking system, are used to apply rear brake assemblies.

What Are the Main Parts of the Hydraulic Braking System?

Master cylinder.

When you press the brake pedal, the brake linkage (rod) pushes on the master cylinder's internal piston seals, pressurizing and forcing brake fluid into the brake lines, brake calipers and wheel cylinders. This causes the brake pads to press inward against the rotors and force the brake shoes to press outward against brake drums.

Power brake booster

Brake boosters assist drivers by multiplying the force they apply to the brake pedal. These boosters use engine vacuum, an electric pump (diesel engines produce little or no engine vacuum) or hydraulic pressure (usually the pressure of the power steering pump). This increases braking performance while decreasing pedal effort, making driving safer and more pleasurable.

Brake lines and hoses

Made of double-walled steel and multi-layer rubber and synthetic compounds, brake lines and hoses transfer pressurized fluid from the master cylinder to the brake wheel assemblies.

Disc brake assemblies

A disc brake assembly consists of a brake caliper, brake pads, disc rotor and mounting hardware.

Drum brake assemblies

A drum brake assembly consists of a backing plate, wheel cylinder, brake shoes/linings, hold-down and pull-back springs, brake drum and an automatic self-brake adjusting mechanism.

Brake switches

Modern brake systems include a brake warning lamp switch that tells the driver if the master cylinder is low on brake fluid, or there is a problem with the brake system. There is also a parking brake warning light that lets you know if the parking brake is engaged.

Parking brake

Applying the parking brake mechanically locks the rear brake assemblies to keep a car stationary when parked on a hill. It also helps stop a vehicle due to a hydraulic system failure.

A hybrid's hydraulic brakes includes all the same parts as a standard hydraulic brake system.

How Does the Braking System Work?

Hydraulic brake systems convert mechanical energy (the spinning wheels) into heat energy by transforming and amplifying the force exerted on the brake pedal. The brake pedal acts like a lever. Along with the brake booster, it greatly multiplies the force applied on the brake fluid in the master cylinder.

The master cylinder also increases brake fluid pressure, then sends pressurized brake fluid, via brake lines and hoses, to the brake calipers and wheel cylinders. The pressurized fluid acts on the caliper piston, squeezing the disc brake pads inward, clamping the pads against the brake rotors .

On drum brakes the wheel cylinders slide outward, forcing the brake shoes against the drum using a wedging, jamming action — similar to how a bicycle coaster brake works. The energy of the pads clamping against the rotors and brake shoes pushing against drums generates friction and heat. This heat-friction, along with friction generated between the tire and road surface, slows rotor and axle (and wheel) rotation and ultimately brings the car to a stop.

On a regenerative braking system, stepping off the accelerator or pushing on the brake pedal causes a hybrid car's electric drive motor to run backward. The drive motor spinning backward places a drag on the wheels and slowing the car, while also producing electricity that recharges a hybrid's high-voltage batteries. While regenerative braking provides practically all the initial stopping power, the hydraulic system engages during panic stops or hard stopping at high speeds.

Signs the Braking System Isn't Working Properly

Grinding (metal-to-metal), noisy brakes.

Worn or damaged brake pads or shoes (possibly digging into and scoring the disc rotors or brake drums), or brake pad wear indicator rubbing against the rotor.
Worn, rusted, missing or broken brake hardware, excess brake dust accumulation, rust build-up on rotors or drums, or a stone, rust or some other foreign object jammed between a rotor and pad.

Steering wheel or brake pedal vibrating when stopping

Excess rotor "run-out" (thickness varies across the face of the rotor) or drums are "out-of-round," badly rusted rotors or drums, contaminated brake linings, cracked, damaged or glazed rotors or drums.

Spongy or fading brake pedal

Low brake fluid, air trapped in the brake fluid or a leak in the hydraulic system.

Low brake, excess pedal travel

Brake self-adjusting mechanism not working, low brake pads or shoe linings, misadjusted master cylinder push rod.

Pulling to one side when stopping

Seized or leaking brake calipers or wheel cylinders, contaminated brake linings, faulty self-brake adjusting mechanism, build-up of excess brake dust or a front-end alignment out of adjustment.

Dragging brakes

Weak, damaged or rusted brake hardware, seized brake calipers or wheel cylinders, collapsed brake hose, misadjusted parking brake cables or misadjusted master cylinder push rod.

Grabbing or locking brakes

Sticking or binding brake hardware, failing or failed anti-lock wheel speed sensors, brake lining friction surfaces contaminated by grease or brake fluid or bad brake booster.

Excessive brake pedal effort

Seized brake calipers or wheel cylinders, clogged or collapsed brake hoses, contaminated brake linings or defective master cylinder, or power brake booster vacuum, mechanical or electrical problems.

A regenerative braking system has a unique pedal feel but can exhibit all of these same symptoms.

Brakes are one of your car's most essential safety systems. Never dismiss a brake warning light or brake system problems. Disregarding brake issues can be dangerous and lead to much more expensive repairs. When it comes to your car's brakes, it's always better to be safe than sorry.

How Car Brakes Work and How to Tell When They Go Bad

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Manual brakes with too much pedal travel.

By Guest Hal Davis (MODEL A HAL) August 5, 2005 in Technical

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'53 Windsor

I don't know much...well pretty much nothing about Mustangs, but I do know some about brakes. If the travel is complete free play, try adjusting the master cylinder pushrod. It probably isn't making contact with the MC piston until the pedal is way down, because you say the pedal is very firm. Also, I'd suggest replacing the master, just for safety, because it is probably just as bad as the rest of the system was.

Hope this helps,

Guest sixpack2639

Hal, try pumping the brake pedal twice. If you have a full pedal on the second pump then you have air in the lines somewhere and need to bleed the brakes. If you don't have a full pedal on the second pump it's likely the brakes need adjusting up. You say on a hard stop the brakes seem to lock up; try holding moderate pressure on the brake pedal for about 30 seconds and see if the pedal steadily goes down. If it does the master cylinder is leaking internally and needs replacing. If it holds in place your master is fine and you need to adjust the brakes. Unless the master cylinder has been replaced I would be hard pressed to believe the actuator rod needs adjusting. Hope that helps, Carl

Thanks guys.

The manual says the only pedal travel adjustment is shoe clearance at the drum. The rod is a one piece deal. I have not looked real good with a flashlight under the dash, but the plunger appears to move very soon after the pedal moves. I.E., very little freeplay in the linkage.

Also, the pedal is good and firm. I don't think there could be any air in the system. Pumping the pedal doesn't result in any improvement. I will try the "hold for 30 second" idea and see what happens.

I also thought about adjusting the shoes out a little further, but I'm already getting some drag. I'm afraid to go out much further.

Hal, The past few years my Amphicar's manual brakes were doing something similar and I have been screwing with them now for almost 2 years trying to get better brake with less pedal. I did the same thing as you by adjusting the brakes till they just started to rub. Last winter I finally had enough of these brakes and tighten the adjustment up which wasn't much more and now they work a 100% better. That is all it took.

I took it for a ride and stopped and felt the wheels / hubs just to make sure I didn't overdue it and they were heating up. Also checked for an unusual amount of brake dust on the rims. I would double-check the master cylinder push though as some vehicles do have a little adjustment screw to reduce travel which isn't much, but a little does a lot with brakes.

That is the logical thing to do. There's no reason I can't adjust them back if I go too far. I'll check the rod, too, but the picture in the book shows a one piece design.

Master cylinder was seeping fluid into boot where actuator rod goes into it. Replaced master cylinder and adjusted brakes out. Rod is one piece design, so no adjustment there. Pedal is much better than before, but still moves further than I would like. Right now, my money is on the drums having a high spot which results in my "drag" when adjusting brakes, but requires more travel to actually get any real braking results. I get no vibration or shimmy when applying brakes, but I can hear the drums hitting in some places and not others when I have it jacked up and spin the wheels. I may just let it go. It has good brakes, albeit 2" off the floor.

Guest De Soto Frank

If memory serves correctly, Fords of this period have Bendix self-adjusting brakes ( with those wonderful little cables).

Sounds like you have the adjustment close. Either in your driveway, or deserted parking lot, or some other place away from traffic, try backing-up with the Mustang, gently but firmly applying the brakes, releasing ,and repeating. Doing this about a dozen pumps will use the automatic adjusters to take-up the rest of any slack in the shoes.

(The self-adjusters operate only when applying the brakes while going back-wards, and they're designed to stop adjusting before clearance gets too tight).

If your drums haven't been turned, they may not only be out-of-round, but also "glazed" (too shiny and smooth), which requires more braking effort.

When your drums come back from being turned, they'll have a slightly rough finish to them...this provides a little more "tooth" for the brake linings to work against.

It doesn't take much adjustment at the wheels to bring the pedal up...a couple clicks at each wheel add-up...

Good luck !

Hal, not that you need more practice removing the brake drums or jacking the car up but you may want to check the drums to make sure they haven't been turned to much and are still in tolerance. Usually the shop manual will have this information.

The drums have definitely been turned before. There is a ridge inside. I have to wonder if they are still in spec. It may be time to get new ones.

As a matter of fact, the shoes had plenty of meat left. It's just that one front and one rear were soaked with brake fluid, so I had to replace them all. The drums may have been turned when that last brake job was done, but they are certainly out of round now, because I can hear it hitting in one place and not others.

Guest imported_PackardV8

could be air in the Master Cylinder. Otherwise it sounds like a bad Master Clyinder..

I did a complete brake rebuild (including new drums) on a '64 Valiant about three years ago. Same Bendix brakes as your Mustang. All parts were sourced from my local Mom'n'Pop, including the drums (wound up being Asian, but they work...)

Any parts store that handles Ray-Bestos (PEP-Boys, among others) or Wagner should be able to find the stuff...or you could go to a "specialist"...

Your machine shop will be able to tell if your old drums are beyond spec.

Hal, Advance Auto parts ( www.partsamerica.com ) carries all the brake parts for my '65 Mustang in Bendix and Raybestos so i'm sure they would have the parts for your '67. Carl

Thanks guys. They are better than they were and have new shoes, cylinders, hoses, and master cylinder. Since it is not a daily driver, I wasn't going to turn the drums. I was going to try and get by, but that is my next step. I don't have a caliper large enough to measure them, but I fully expect them to be beyond turning. If not, fine. If so, new ones it is. In the meantime, it does have brakes. It's just that the pdeal is only 2" off the floor when you get them.

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VW MKIV-A4 TDIs (VE and PD)

Excess Brake Pedal Travel?

Thread starter PDJetta
Start date Jul 19, 2012

Veteran Member

Mine like yours has been like that since day one. I like you performed all the same procedures. The two things that finally helped were: 1) Adjust parking brake by: pump brakes 5 times in 4 seconds, hold then pull firmly on the parking brake lever, release foot, release hand brake and repeat 5 times. I try and do this at least once/month. 2) After 50k mi. it dawned on me that I hardly ever really apply the brakes hard and in fact they have never really been seated properly. I went ahead and applied the standard brake seating procedures and both these tasks have greatly improved the confidence of the pedal. I went out on an empty hiway, ran it up to 60mph and panic near-stopped on the brakes, enough to activate the ABS. I did this about 5 or 6 times. This flushes fluid thru the pump and heats the pads to the disc. Now (summer) is a good time to bed the brakes.

Thanks.. "After 50k mi. it dawned on me that I hardly ever really apply the brakes hard and in fact they have never really been seated properly." I brake VERY lightly almost all the time too. I have about half the pad left on all fours and have 150,000 miles on the car and drive daily in rush hour traffic in the Washington, DC area. Maybe that is the issue. It does feel as if the automatic adjusters aren't snugging the pads close enough to the rotors. I'll have to give your suggestion a try. --Nate

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Just bought an '04 tdi and noticed the same thing. Pedal travels far but brakes perform very well. Used to it now. Will try the parking brake adjust as I do not believe they require further bedding.

rexdriver85

I also was having this problem with my 04. Half the pedal travel was dead space until the brakes would finally catch. I got used to it, but in a panic stop situation it can be really scary, because of the good second or two before you're brakes start applying. I bought a motive power bleeder and yesterday did a full flush with OEM brake fluid starting with the farthest caliper away from the master cylinder and working my way front. To be honest I got no bubbles or anything, just kept going until I had fresh fluid from each caliper. Took for a test drive and it was a world of difference. Brakes start applying as soon as you touch the pedal just like it should be. My car is only at 64k, as compared to you're 150k. You could have other things going on. VW's are notorious for wearing rear brakes twice as fast as fronts though, especially B5 passats. And, also notorious for rotting/rusting out e-brake cables too.

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Gen 3: 2005-2009

brake pedal travel

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So I recently got this car and have replaced rotors and pads but not touched the hydraulics. Fluid level is good and the color is still pretty clear. The brakes work well and have decent feel. The weird thing is at a stop the pedal goes basically all the way to the floor. It doesn't just fall at a steady rate, but if I push hard after I've stopped it goes down further. It never releases the brake, the car never rolls and if I drive it feels fine. Is this normal with these vehicles or is the master starting to go on me? I know different cars have different pedal feel. Just curious what others have noticed.

Subarus are known to have spongy brake pedal, my 3rd gen is similar. I also just replaced brakes and had a soft pedal after removing some fluid because of compressing all 6 pistons. I was worried about having to bleed them at first. After letting idle and pumping the brakes a few times it improved. Now after about 200 miles it feels great. It is still a bit on the soft side for my liking but some of that is likely firewall flex, a common complaint with all Subarus in addition to spongy pedal. There are master cylinder brace kits available to help alleviate the issue, which can get worse with spirited driving and extreme braking duties. How long ago was brake service done? Were they bled? Is it better or worse than before?

No bleeding from me, I don't think the PO did anything. It was basically out of rear brakes when I bought it and the fronts where half gone. I'm sure the PO had pads thrown on the front and that's it.

I've had several Subies but mostly high performance models IE STis and WRX and they've never felt quite like this. My old 99 outback is kinda crappy on the brakes but that's because they're tiny. LOL

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Jeep Platform Discussion
WK2- Grand Cherokee (2011-2021/22 WK)
WK2 -Trouble Shooting/Problems/Service

Too much brake pedal travel after rear pads and rotors

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2017 WK2, installed Bosch quiet cast rotors and ceramic pads in rear. Now has more brake pedal travel than before. Everything I read says it seems like air in system, but how would that happen? The system was never opened to introduce air. Only thing I can think of is when compressing caliper piston it somehow allowed air in? I've pumped them up at least a hundred times. E brake works, and the pads are engaging the rotor on both sides. I have same brand rotors and pads on another car and they are great. Not sure what the deal is. Saw another thread that mentions using a motive power bleeder so I guess I'll try that. Is this normal when replacing brakes on these? Anything to do with it being Bosch ceramic pads? Other possibilities?

Yes, bad calipers or Master Cylinder, forcing the pistons back with a C clamp to back flow the system against the seals can cause the seals to get damaged if they are already deteriorated, and that can cause the pedal to feel like there is air in the system. The WK2 seems to come with brake fluid that gunks up faster than most (or a component in the system is deteriorating quickly and putting gunk into the fluid). When you force the pistons in the caliper back into their cylinder you force the fluid backwards through the system, if you have any seals the system are deteriorating, this could be enough to blow the seals or make them worse. The calipers can have gunk collect on the piston near the seals, and the seal fails to scrape it all off and it compromises the sealing or the gunk damags the seals. Then, keep in mind the front calipers are two piston calipers. This got me. One piston can be faulty and the other operates properly, so you get braking from the one piston squeezing the pads, but the pedal doesn't reel right because the bad piston is not moving right. My brakes were a mess when I got my WK2 used. The brake fluid was black with lots of debri floating in it. Fresh fluid didn't change anything. The Master Cylinder blew the first time I tried to bleed the brakes (common for a Master Cylinder that is failing, pushing it through full stroke many times, pushing the seals into the gunked up areas, results in completely blowing the seals). New Master cylinder resulted in air in the ABS unit and only using an OBDII tool to activate the ABS Pump can clear it (Most vehicle you can flush air through the ABS unit and successfully bleed the brakes without having to activate the ABS pump). When I finally finish the Master Cylinder and fully bleeding the brakes, the pedal still did NOT feel right, it was too soft and inconsistent, sometime firm, then the next pump soft. I lived with it, till I had a front caliper stick and kept the brake on. I replaced the caliper with a rebuild, and notice the brake pedal improves a lot. The old caliper had one piston seized, stuck with gunk, the other piston operating somewhat normally. I test all the calipers, by pulling them and opening the bleed port, pushing the piston in, only the new rebuild and one rear caliper (rears are single piston), could I push the piston in by hand and it moved smoothly, all the other pistons if I could even budge them by hand, they move inconsistently and soon got hung up and stuck. My system was totally gunked up and it was destroying the whole system. I replaced the rest of the calipers and the hoses, to get rid of the remaining gunk, after bleeding it thoroughly, my brake pedal finally felt normal, firm and repsonsive. So I go the extra distance and replace the plastic reservoir, because it also was coated with gunk inside it, and it wasn't flushing out. Then my Booster started leaking vacuum, that likely needs replaced now. Perhaps it the check valve, but the early WK2's are known for rusting boosters that start to leak and bleed down to quickly.

Another sign of a bad master cylinder, push the pedal all the way down and yank you foot off it, the pedal should come up as fast as you pull your foot away, if it doesn't and comes up slower than you can lift your foot off it, i.e. you can actually pull your foot away and off the pedal as the pedal returns slower than your foot. Thats a big sign of a bad master cylinder, but not the only one. i.e. the pedal can return normally and it still be bad, but if the pedal does not return normally, thats a bad master cylinder.

Thank you for taking the time to respond. That is a lot of useful information. As soon as I got home I bled the rear brakes with an assistant. No change. The fluid was still see through and no debris. The brake pedal does not return as fast as the accelerator pedal. It returns quickly but not as you described. I guess the next step is look into testing the master cylinder further and determine if that is definitely bad, and to check if the caliper cylinders are stuck. Thank you, this has been very helpful

Pro tip: open the bleeder to let the crappy fluid out of the caliper when you push the piston(s) in.

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B15 Sentra (2000 - 2006)

Excessive pedal travel after brake booster replacement

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Hey all, I didn't want my first post to be a question but I cant seem to find enough info on my issue to make an executive decision. I am driving an 02 SER Auto without ABS. Recently I discovered a vacuum leak on my brake booster inside the car at the wall when the pedal was pressed. Even with the small vacuum leak the brakes, albeit a little soft, engaged right at the top. I have what feels like excessive play in my brake pedal after replacing my brake booster. With the vehicle off and brake pedal pressure pumped up as much as it will pressurize I can press the pedal roughly half way down before encountering any significant resistance. Even when the pedal seems to encounter resistance there seems to be a little too much give, there is almost a "step" in the pedal travel. My initial thoughts were the clearance for the push rod on the booster is too short so the first half of pedal travel isnt even contacting the master cylinder until half way down.( with the old booster first sign of pedal resistance felt higher on the stroke but there was still a little give as there is now) With the vehicle on the first half of pedal stroke has NO brake effect until roughtly the half way point, after that the brakes will grab and stop the car. A small detail I did noticed during road testing is that when I got on the brakes hard enough to lock the front wheels one locked before the other or only one locked at all. Even before I replaced the booster I know this was happening due to a scenario where I was full on panic braking a month ago, on inspection of the skid marks I left only one from the front right. While I did not bench bleed the master cylinder during the re-install I did make sure to bleed all 4 corners according to the FSM, I even went as far as to cycle enough fluid through the system to get out all the old and only have new DOT4. Even after I was sure all the old fluid was cycled out I made another pass to ensure I got whatever air could be hiding in the system. Over 1.5 big bottles were consumed during the bleeding, not to mention all the old fluid removed. Me not being an expert I feel this is enough but if the more educated could please weigh in. During the removal and bleed no leaks were present at the master cylinder and no leaks or damage were observed at the brake lines or calipers. A little background on some of the components and work done in the past. The currently installed master cylinder and front calipers were installed 05/17 and have about 100K miles on them, I am also running 2J's stainless brake lines with the same mileage, brakes were bled and the system was swapped to DOT 4 at that time as well. The rear calipers were replaced about 7/15. Within the past 10K miles I have replaced the front wheel bearings and spindles, Pads with hawk street performance, rotors with 2J's slotted and drilled, brakes were also bled during the pad and rotor replacement. The booster I just installed doesn't have more than 10 miles as of posting this. My general feeling and assumption knowing what I know is that one of the master cylinder pistons is leaking internally. With the way non abs systems put one front and rear on each half of the master and the fact that one of the front wheels is locking before the other, this makes sense to me. But again I am no expert and have limited experience troubleshooting hydraulic systems. Am I on the right track thinking I have a bad master cylinder piston seal? Did I miss something critical or did I leave out a crucial step in the reassembly? Im open to any suggestions as this is my daily driver and I really want to get her back in spec. Thank You.

Not entirely related, but my '03 SER had its ABS system fail and the mechanic simply reverted it to a non-ABS braking system. TBH, the damn thing was better at braking. Now, I have to give the caveat that I started driving in 1972 and never much liked ABS better than pumping brakes "old school," and when I moved from Texas to Iowa was thrown for a loop with ABS, finding it far less effective in snow and ice -- which I thought is what it was supposed to excel in. After the car was returned to plain old braking, I had MUCH, MUCH better control in hard pumping stops in such conditions. I even had a chance to test this in a near-identical before and after situation on a snowy road. As I said, no real answer, but "I'm just sayin'."

Update Dug out the OE master cylinder, disassembled, visually inspected seals, cylinder walls and thoroughly cleaned everything. Bench bled, swapped the current master with OE and bled the system down again. The rear brakes were able to clear all air in the system but both front brakes seem to have a leak. No matter how much fluid I put through the system air just kept coming. However, brake feel is better, brakes engage a little higher on the stroke and overall pedal feel is more consistent. So now im considering brake lines and/or calipers even though there are absolutely zero visual leaks anywhere between where the brake line connects and the calipers themselves. As for the master cylinder that was removed it too was disassembled and inspected. Nothing glaringly obvious. Though I did notice fine black particles in the crevices/cylinder bore and a small amount of buildup on the piston seals. Makes me think the aftermarket rubber may have started to break down earlier than expected. I have removed the calipers plenty of times and safety wired them out of the way, I can safely say the lines have never experienced excess force or handling. Before I go throwing money at a set of calipers AND brake lines, does anyone have a suggestion as to what is the most likely culprit here?

There is a special tool designed to measure the measure the travel of the piston that protrudes from the brake booster and the tip of it presses against the piston of the master cylinder. these two have to be almost touching for this to be PERFECT then you use another tool to flush air out from master cylinder down brb for links and video… It is a sold for Corvette only tool but applicable to all application under this premise brb…

Buy this tool on video shown likely $20.00 I have one as I had similar problem until I learned this rod is supposed to be adjusted lol…

But this Motive tool with exact fitment made for Nissan vehicles one attachment only all together maybe $60.00 AMAZON or eBay…? After that YOURE PERFECT!!!

IIRC Nissan is either 7mm or 8mm on the adjuster, on the vehicle. Unlike the video YOU DO THIS WORK on the car. ise a broom stick or have a helper press and hold the brake pedal down to extend and keep extended the shaft so you can grip it with vice grips and bolt it from rotating while you use the 7mm or 8mm around the bullet shaped tip and either screw it in or out BASED ON YOUR MEASUREMENTS WITH THE SPECIAL TOOL FIRST… Once your clearances are set you’re solid and then flush it all out with the Motive Brother brb…

Dude, thank you so much for the info! It did not occur to me the output rod on the booster might be way out of spec! Booster is from autozone so I should have known better than to blindly trust their adjustments. Considering my brake pedal sits higher since the booster replacement, if adjusting the output rod forward affects pedal height, this would explain alot. I have a reman master on hand and I'm already looking at ordering a booster rod measuring tool and vacuum bleeder. I will report back once I get the new master installed and booster rod adjusted properly.

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Brake pedal travel

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Have a 2011 Heritage The rear brake pedal has way to much travel , I know this is a problem but what is the fix for it.

Does your bike have ABS ?

no it don't have ABS

My 2011 Heritage has ABS Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

OK then I would try bleeding the rear brake at the caliper.

was thinking of that but don't know how air would get in unless fluid is low I don't see a leak Going to switch out the fluid when I try this I see it is needed every 2 years

Someone could have changed the brake light switch and gotten air in the system.

Plenty of material left on the rear pads? Is the caliper freed up and operating normally?

Check your pad thickness. It can be done on the bike with a flashlight and some contortion or mirror. I forgot the spec. HD uses for min. thickness, but it is about the thickness of a credit card! I replace mine way before that.

I don't know if you bought a used or new Bike or how many miles the Breaks have on them. Most people use the Rear Break to stop. Me I use the Front because it's a lot easier to replace the PADS in the Front. Anyway to much travel is the first sign you need to check the Brake Pads. Probably your a few miles away from hearing the Rotors grinding. First I would Pull those Pads off and check them. When Harley assembles the bikes they put the right amount of Fluid in the Reservoirs, as the Break Pads ware the Fluid level will go down in the Reservoir causing Travel. If you fill up the Reservoir and you need new brake pads, you will not be able to compress the Brake Caliper Hydrophilic Plunger. Also to accomplish that task use a big C Clamp. That's what I would do, Good Luck!

Ok I changed the fluid in the rear brakes and used a brake bleader pump on it. I have brakes I did notice when the pump was sucking out the old fluid that a single air bubble Had to be the problem How it got in there thow I have no clue. Thanks guys It a easy fix and now ill be changing the fluid out once a year The fluid was bad looked stringy I know I have never changed it in the 3 years I had the bike. Now should the front fluid be changed also It works fine but is old fluid also. Thanks again for the advice and tips

Yes do the front and avoid problems down the road.

Harley spec is to change fluid every 2 years. There's even a note about it related to the abs recall, that if brakes are not flushed every 2 years, the abs recall is basically voided (may have this wrong, so check the info for yourself). If you've owned the bike for 3 years, then change the front fluid and check pads while you're down there. From my 2014 service manual, min pad thickness is 16 thousandths. Eff that, that's way too thin! Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

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Too Much Brake Pedal Travel

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I have a 66 Mustang with a GeoMetro brake booster, Granada front discs and GM rear discs. My MC is a dual reservoir, 1” bore. I have bled this system multiple times, including “c” clamping the calipers, and I can’t get the brakes to activate sooner. I use up all the pedal travel before the system builds braking pressure. I am thinking the MC needs to displace more fluid, any ideas for me…

And you choose this combo of parts, why? Your using a 3 cylinder front wheel drive brake booster and other Gm parts, Why? There are so many other known good parts that work for this car.

Well, the metro booster fits the space constraints under the hood and bolts easily to the existing system. The GM rear calipers are part of a street rod conversion kit for 9” rear ends. The GM calipers also have a built in e-brake system that hooks up easily the existing e-brake. When I was finished I had 4 wheel disc brakes for less than $500.

Might be a pushrod length issue with that combination of parts. Make sure you're not using too much pedal travel taking up slack.

I spent some time timing the pedal location and travel so the MC would work at full stroke and my pedal would ride correctly. It may be worth it to go back over the setup to make sure the MC is getting full stroke. I also added in line checks to keep some residual in the lines.

FEandGoingBroke said: I can't believe what I am hearing with my own eyes.... ADJUST YOUR BRAKE SHOES OUT.... That will help you out Tremendously! Good luck! Click to expand...

It is a 4 disc set up; I have been pondering the statement for sometime wondering if my 2psi residual line pressure was not holding the calipers. If I recall correctly I have checked to make sure the calipers were not retracting and causing excessive gaps.

Dang 4 wheel disc... maybe a 4lb residual? You got me on that one. A little over done on the braking if you ask me. Do you road race with it? FE

Short coarse road racing was my plan when I rebuilt my car, however I have yet to run a race. I would be good with removing the checks. I still think the system needs more displacement.

I had this problem too, first I would try bleeding from the calipers. Don't use a brake bleeder pump, run some hose from the bleeder value to a bottle with brake fluid in it and bleed the brakes by holding down the pedal and opening the bleeder valve. Do this 6 or 7 times for each brake. I have used brake bleeder pump kits and I get a "better pedal" this way. If this does not work...it could be the mixing of parts and the MC does not move enough volume of fluid to push the brakes out. Note: it takes a lot of fluid and pumping to fill up 4 new calipers. Also, you will need a distrbution valve to set up front to back bis.

I have bled the system many times, but I have been using a vacuum pump on the calipers. A good old brake pump and bleed may help out. What were your results like? Did you regain a lot of your pedal motion?

I had my problem after replacing the front calipers on my Dodge Dakota...keep using the brake pump and could never get a stiff pedal, then I bleed them with the hose method and it was the best pedal I ever had.

I'd think that bleeding with vacuum would draw the piston Away from the brake shoe giving you poor pedal... I missed that it was a 4 wheel disc earlier... My bad. But for sure use your foot to bleed them. Not that there's AIR, and one pump per wheel should get your volume back up.

After more extensive conversations with brake system suppliers my latest theory is that the master cylinder is not getting a full stroke. I have been told that the calipers I have are small and the 1” MC bore should be plenty of fluid if I can get it to stroke at least 3” furthermore I have a manual pedal that has a 5 to 1 ratio not a 4 to 1 required by power systems. I am going to dig back into the pedal booster setup and make sure I am getting the full MC stroke. I will post my findings wish me luck.

Check and see if your bleed screws or on top of the calipers, ??? If not you have them on the wrong side and you will never get the air out and have a good pedal. Happy trails

For what it's worth a '93 mk8 (4whl disc) uses a 1.125 bore m\cyl. It all depends on caliper piston size and fluid displacement. The larger the caliper piston, the larger the master cyl needs to be. You could try GENTLY pinching off the brake hoses to find where your pressure loss is. Try pinching off all 4 corners and check the pedal. If it's high and hard the master cyl and perp valve are ok. Then have someone press the pedal while you release the clamps one at a time. If the pedal drops significanty more on one wheel than the rest then check for air at that wheel. If it drops approx the same on all wheels then you likely need a bigger master cyl. or more pedal stroke as you previously mentioned.

Stop with the SIZE 3 font stuff... It's killing my eyes! That MC should be plenty to push 4 caliper pistons less than a total of 3/16 of an inch! Bleed as stated, with the pedal. ALSO, make sure you have a Full Back swing on your brake pedal so you get the full travel into your master. A perfect brake system will work with less than 2 inches of total travel. The calipers do not retract from the rotor's they simply release their grip. If they are retracting them something inside your brake system is goofy.

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How to Fix Excessive Brake Pedal Travel
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Every thousandth of an inch over spec causes excess brake pedal travel. Less than .025 in. travel at the master cylinder pushrod can equal about ½ in. at the pedal. Every little bit of unnecessary movement adds up. ... A good way to determine if there's too much pushrod travel is to loosen the master cylinder-to-power booster attaching ...
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patrikman. 4517 posts · Joined 2013. #2 · Oct 9, 2015. Subarus are known to have spongy brake pedal, my 3rd gen is similar. I also just replaced brakes and had a soft pedal after removing some fluid because of compressing all 6 pistons. I was worried about having to bleed them at first.
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5244 posts · Joined 2018. #2 · Jun 14, 2021. Yes, bad calipers or Master Cylinder, forcing the pistons back with a C clamp to back flow the system against the seals can cause the seals to get damaged if they are already deteriorated, and that can cause the pedal to feel like there is air in the system. The WK2 seems to come with brake fluid ...
Excessive pedal travel after brake booster replacement
Even when the pedal seems to encounter resistance there seems to be a little too much give, there is almost a "step" in the pedal travel. My initial thoughts were the clearance for the push rod on the booster is too short so the first half of pedal travel isnt even contacting the master cylinder until half way down. ( with the old booster first ...
Brake pedal travel
Have a 2011 Heritage The rear brake pedal has way to much travel , I know this is a problem but what is the fix for it. ... Anyway to much travel is the first sign you need to check the Brake Pads. ... Eff that, that's way too thin! Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk . From the land of eternal summer and sunshine. 2018 Harley Street Glide ...
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Sep 23, 2008. #17. Well, one quarter turn on those rear adjusters made a huge difference. Brake pedal travels about 1-1/2 inches now before engaging the pads. Those rear pads do rub a little so I'll check the drums after I take it out for a run. Off to help with 5th grade homework.
Too Much Brake Pedal Travel
Too Much Brake Pedal Travel. I have a 66 Mustang with a GeoMetro brake booster, Granada front discs and GM rear discs. My MC is a dual reservoir, 1" bore. I have bled this system multiple times, including "c" clamping the calipers, and I can't get the brakes to activate sooner. I use up all the pedal travel before the system builds ...
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HOW TO FIX EXCESSIVE BRAKE PEDAL TRAVEL

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Honda CR-V Soft Brake Pedal: Causes + How to Fix

Causes of Soft Brake Pedal in Honda CR-V

Brake Fluid Leak (Air in the System)

Defective Master Cylinder

Worn Out Brake Pads

Poorly Adjusted Rear Drums (If Equipped)

Compromised Brake Booster

What Happens When You Push The Brake Pedal (Understanding the Braking System)

Diagnosing Soft Brake Pedal Issues

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Manual brakes with too much pedal travel.

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Too much brake pedal travel after rear pads and rotors

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Excessive pedal travel after brake booster replacement

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Too Much Brake Pedal Travel

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