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How Electronic Throttle Control Systems Work

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Up until the late 1980s, most cars had a fairly straightforward throttle control. You stepped on the accelerator pedal, the throttle opened, and air flowed into the engine, where it mixed with gasoline and burned. This burning gas powered the car's wheels, getting you down the road. If you wanted to go faster, all you had to do was step down harder -- the throttle would open wider, giving the car more power.

But electronic throttle control, which is sometimes called drive-by-wire, uses electronic, instead of mechanical, signals to control the throttle. That means that when you step on your car's gas pedal, instead of opening the throttle, you're activating an accelerator pedal module, which converts the pressure you put on the pedal into an electric signal. That signal is then sent to an electronic control unit, which takes your inputs into account, as well as outside variables, to open the throttle for optimum efficiency and performance.

It's a complex system, but one that has a lot of benefits for engine wear, performance and efficiency. However, like any complex system, it's not perfect, and drivers have raised a lot of questions about them. Can outside signals interact with the ETC? What kind of failsafes are in place if such interference happens? Read on to learn the answers.

Benefits of Electronic Throttle Control

Etc systems and outside signals, etc failsafe modes.

Electronic throttle control systems may seem a little silly. After all, if a mechanical throttle control system works, why make it more complicated?

While it's true that electronic throttle control adds complications, it also adds a number of benefits. The first is decreased maintenance. Mechanical throttle systems, because they are made up of a lot of moving parts, are subject to a lot of wear. Over the life of the car, the various components can wear out. By comparison, an electronic throttle control system has comparatively few moving parts -- it sends its signals by electric impulse, not moving parts. That reduces wear and the amount of maintenance needed on the system.

Beginning in 2009, electronic throttle control systems made headlines as a result of a large-scale recall of Toyota vehicles due to acceleration control problems. Given the negative press electronic throttle control systems received, you may be surprised to know that electronic throttle controls add a number of safety benefits over mechanical systems. In a mechanical system, the throttle relies only on driver input to decide how far to open or close. With an electronic throttle control system, the main control unit not only reads input from the driver's foot on the accelerator, but it also examines input from wheels that are slipping, wheels that have grip, the steering system and the brakes, helping correct driver error and keep the car under control. In other words, a throttle control system can balance several factors that affect a car's speed and direction -- not just a foot on the pedal. Plus, electronic throttle control is a key component in most cruise control systems.

Electronic throttle control may be a complex system, but it makes driving a car easier and safer, and it can reduce maintenance. However, one of the concerns raised during the 2009-2010 Toyota recall was whether outside signals can interfere with electronic throttle control. Keep reading to learn whether this is true.

Imagine driving along the route you usually take to work, when your car suddenly starts surging through traffic. It's what some drivers claim has happened to them, and some of them blame the car's electronic throttle control system.

According to some drivers who have experienced unintended acceleration, as well as some experts in automotive engineering, electromagnetic interference can cause electronic throttle control systems to malfunction. In some scenarios, interference from things like cell phones and power lines has been blamed for causing a short circuit in the electronic throttle control, leading to sudden, unintended acceleration.

In the most publicized case, Professor David Gilbert, a professor of engineering at Southern Illinois University, showed on ABC news how he was able to create a short circuit in a Toyota Avalon that caused the engine to rev, accelerating the car without driver input -- and in spite of the application of the brakes [source: Ross ].

However, Toyota and other experts fired back that Gilbert's example was contrived and unlikely to occur in the real world. According to Gilbert's critics, he had to cut and reconnect several wires in the system, something that is extremely unlikely to occur in a car that's been used normally [source: Toyota ].

While a short circuit could, in theory, cause an electronic throttle control to open the throttle and rev the engine, many experts point out that the systems are well insulated to prevent electromagnetic interference from compromising the system.

However, just because short circuits and interference are unlikely doesn't mean that automakers have ignored the possibility of them happening. Keep reading to learn about failsafes and backups that have been built into electronic throttle control systems.

Like most complex systems, electronic throttle control systems have a number of failsafes. These are designed as redundancies and backups to keep the system running, or provide a safe shutdown if something goes wrong.

Generally speaking, at the first sign of a problem, most electronic throttle controls are designed to close the throttle and return to idle. So, for example, if the engine control unit detects a problem with a sensor, the system reverts to idle, preventing the throttle from opening.

Similarly, there are a number of redundancies built into the system. For example, just one sensor isn't used to detect driver inputs or other factors. Each sensor position uses two sensors. If a sensor malfunctions, or the two sensors in a given position report different readings, the system closes the throttle, idling the engine.

What about outside interference causing power surges or short circuits? Most systems use a smart throttle motor. The throttle motor is the final gatekeeper that throttle signals need to go through before the throttle actually moves. If the throttle motor detects voltage or signals that didn't come from the engine control module, it's designed to shut the engine down. If electromagnetic interference were strong enough to affect electronic throttle controls, the throttle control system is designed to shut down, not surge ahead.

That's not to say that electronic throttle control systems are problem-free; rather, they've been designed with a number of failsafes that, if working properly, should prevent unexpected engine surges and acceleration.

Still, in the wake of new consumer awareness about unintended acceleration and questions about electronic throttle controls, car makers are adding another failsafe: brake overrides. These systems, which are already available on a number of cars from German manufacturers, allow driver inputs to step in and override the throttle system. So, if the system malfunctions somehow and the throttle opens on its own, stepping on the brakes will close it.

Electronic throttle control is just one of the electronic components under the hood. Learn about others by reading the links on the next page.

Lots More Information

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• Bergholdt, Brad. "Under the Hood: Electronic Throttle Control is Complicated, But Precise." McClatchy-Tribune Information Services. February 26, 2010. [March 8, 2010].http://dailyme.com/story/2010022600004464/hood-electronic-throttle-control-complicated-precise.html
• Lienert, Anita. "Toyota's Electronic Throttle Control and Electromagnetic Interference Testing Presentation." February 23, 2010. [March 8, 2010].http://www.insideline.com/toyota/toyota-throttle-control-and-electromagnetic-interference-testing-presentation.html
• O'Donnell, Jayne. "Could electronics be what's causing runaway cars?" USA Today. February 23, 2010. [March 8, 2010].http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2010-02-23-Electromagnetic23_CV_N.htm
• Pico Technology. "Electronic Throttle Control." Pico Technology. [March 9, 2010]http://www.picoauto.com/applications/electronic-throttle-control.html
• Rhee, Joseph. "Toyota Slams Sudden Acceleration Research of Auto Expert as Unrealistic." ABC News. March 8, 2010. [March 8, 2010].http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/RunawayToyotas/toyota-slams-sudden-acceleration-research-auto-expert-unrealistic/story?id=10042858&page=1
• Ross, Brian. Expert Recreates Sudden Acceleration in Toyota." March 4, 2010. [March 8, 2010].http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/video/testing-toyota-9914148?tab=9482930&section=1206853&playlist=1363488
• Thomas, Ken and Stephen Manning. "Toyota disputes critic who blames electronics." The Associated Press. March 8, 2010. [March 8, 2010].http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iNwJcVe09iBDYjmKOaeF4IU9vGRwD9EAOO0O0
• Toyota. "Comprehensive Analysis Raises Concerns About Gilbert Congressional Testimony, ABC News Segment." Toyota. March 8, 2010 [March 8, 2010].http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/electronic-throttle-control-154300.aspx

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How Autothrottles Work

• By Swayne Martin

Autothrottles are a big hurdle to overcome for new airline pilots and those upgrading to advanced aircraft. For your entire aviation career, you've been manually managing engine power and it can be difficult to get comfortable letting automation do it for you. Understanding how to use autothrottles efficiently is one of the best tools available for you in the flight deck.

If you've flown with autothrottles before, this article may refresh the basics but is primarily intended to provide a foundation to prepare for aircraft-specific training.

A Fully Automated Flight

Let's take a look at what autothrottles can do at the highest level of automation. Even before the plane has left the gate, you've programmed a series of speeds into your FMC for climb, cruise, descent, and approach. Autothrottles can be thought of as a separate system from your autopilot. You can fly with A/P on and A/T off or vice versa.

From the moment you engage autothrottles on takeoff, the autothrottles can manage engine power to meet climb restrictions, your exact cruise speed, and speed/altitude restrictions on the descent. When ATC wants a new speed, you command the autothrottles to maintain a new speed via the speed window. During an autoland, the autothrottles can even bring the thrust levers to idle in the flare. All without you physically moving the thrust levers.

So how does this all come together and what are the basics of using autothrottles?

Programmed Power To Achieve Commanded Speed

During takeoff, climb, cruise, descent, and go-around, there are pre-programmed power settings for required efficiency and performance. The nice thing is that you won't have to do much math, most of the power settings are calculated without your input. On takeoff, you may perform a reduced thrust takeoff (when safety margins allow you to use more runway on a takeoff roll)... or maybe due to runway contamination, you'll be performing a max thrust takeoff.

These power settings help you achieve desired speed and performance when using autothrottles. Based on the commanded speed, climb, or descent profiles from the FMC VNAV page or your autopilot control panel, the autothrottles will power the engines up to the maximum limit for that phase of flight. So, if you want to expedite your climb, but you're already flying at max climb thrust at the programmed speed, you'll need to reduce speed to increase your rate of climb.

Let's say you're hand-flying with the autothrottles on and you've selected a VNAV climb (VNAV SPD). The programmed climb speed is 250 knots. As you pull back to increase the rate of climb, the autothrottles will increase power to meet that rate while maintaining 250 knots. When you push forward to shallow your climb, the autothrottles reduce thrust. Just like you'd do manually.

Arming Autothrottles

Autothrottle systems have an "arm" switch. You can think of this as powering the autothrottle system. When armed, the autothrottles are ready to operate. Disarmed, they cannot turn on.

Engaging Autothrottles

On the takeoff roll, as you start to bring the thrust up, you'll likely engage the autothrottles when you reach an aircraft-specific power setting. This will command a takeoff thrust setting.

During climb out, when you select a VNAV or speed setting, the autothrottles will change from takeoff performance to climb performance (indicated by reduced thrust on engine instruments). Unless a fault occurs, they may remain on for the rest of the flight.

Disengaging Autothrottles

To disengage the autothrottles, you push a disengage button (located on the side of the throttles in Boeing aircraft). But this does not disarm the autothrottles, it only "puts them to sleep." They may still be instantly re-engaged by pushing the autothrottle button or go-around buttons in some aircraft. You should announce to your other pilot that you're disengaging autothrottles.

There are limits to how low you can fly using autothrottles, which is aircraft-dependent. Some pilots prefer clicking off the autothrottles when they turn off the autopilot for a hand-flown approach, while others leave them engaged throughout the approach.

Disarming Autothrottles

To disarm (deactivate) the autothrottle system, you'll move the arming switch to off. In some aircraft, this is done following an engine failure if the autothrottles are not certified for single-engine operations.

Overriding Autothrottles

You can always override the autothrottles. On Boeing aircraft, the autothrottles physically move via a small motor system. They operate based on a flight computer which may react slower than you, so many pilots will slightly override the autothrottles if the flight computer reacts too slowly to changes in commanded speed.

It is important, to not over-fight the autothrottles. It's easy to create a pilot-induced oscillation when the computer and pilot are reacting in opposition.

Airbus vs. Boeing

While there are many differences between Airbus and Boeing, one of the most noticeable is autothrottles. On Boeing aircraft, autothrottles physically move based on engine power. On Airbus aircraft, the thrust levers remain in a stationary detent and do not physically move as engine power changes.

Every Airplane Operates Differently

Each airplane you fly with autothrottles will have different system logic. The details in this article are meant to be the foundation blocks for you to learn more about your specific airplane. Keep a close eye on exactly what protections each autothrottle mode provides you.

Speed Protections

Depending on your aircraft and selected speed mode, the autothrottles can offer you speed protection to prevent stalling. As your airspeed decreases, it will reach a point (a margin figure above stall speed) where the autothrottles "wake up" and begin increasing the engine power to prevent a stall.

For example, on the 757/767 during a go-around (lots of excess power), the autothrottles will command a climb of 2,000 feet per minute to initiate a significant climb without skyrocketing back into the sky at 5,000 feet per minute and making a stable go-around difficult.

Autothrottle Mode Confusion

In the case of Asiana Flight 214, the pilots lost situational awarness of what autothrottle mode they were in until it was too late:

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Swayne is an editor at Boldmethod, certified flight instructor, and a First Officer on the Boeing 757/767 for a Major US Carrier. He graduated as an aviation major from the University of North Dakota in 2018, holds a PIC Type Rating for Cessna Citation Jets (CE-525), is a former pilot for Mokulele Airlines, and flew Embraer 145s at the beginning of his airline career. Swayne is an author of articles, quizzes and lists on Boldmethod every week. You can reach Swayne at [email protected] , and follow his flying adventures on his YouTube Channel .

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ThrustSense Autothrottle Moves Up To CJ Series

The autothrottle from innovative solutions & support will also go into the citation m2..

The latest version of the IS&S ThrustSense autothrottle will target the Cessna Citation CJ3—including variants such as the CJ3+. Textron Aviation

At its core, the key to success for the autothrottle that formed the basis for the ThrustSense series from Innovative Solutions & Support was to “design an actuator that was fail-safe—there was no failure, no jamming, and no issues that would cause jamming of the throttle to prevent the pilot from moving the power lever,” said Shahram Askarpour, president of [IS&S.|https://innovative-ss.com/about-iss/[

“We always wanted the pilot to be able to override it,” he added.

At the National Business Aviation Association’s BACE on Monday, IS&S announced it was continuing its ThrustSense line with pursuit of inclusion on the Cessna Citation M2, CJ3, and CJ4.

The ThrustSense with LifeGuard Protection is planned for the full range of flight decks, including those with Pro Line 21, Pro Line Fusion, and Garmin avionics.

The autothrottle installation uses the standby electronic flight instrument—called the Integrated Standby Unit—as its controller in each model, so detailing those solutions would take up much of the time between the announcement and FAA certification in each variation.

While the autothrottle helps significantly with workload management, Askarpour noted that the primary benefit was safety, particularly in engine-out scenarios, to help prevent VMC rollover—also an issue with jet operations.

[insert ISS Image 1]

The ThrustSense installation in the Pilatus PC-12 and Beechcraft King Air 260 and 360 won a 2021 FLYING Editors’ Choice Award for this solution for non-fadec engines.

The package includes a configuration adapter that will allow the owner to transition the autothrottle to a new flight deck, should they decide on an avionics upgrade.

While no fixed pricing was set, Askarpour projected that the cost would be similar to that of the King Air installations—less than $100,000, all-in.

Askarpour anticipates using a similar network of service providers to manage the installation as it does with the Pilatus and King Air models.

The company is taking orders for delivery in early 2022.

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Honeywell crafts safer approaches through technology, garmin options start with not ditching your g430 or g530, garmin demos new vhf radios, honeywell developing software to reduce runway incursions, going with glass: the mother of all panel upgrades, garmin gns 430: throwaway or keeper, new to flying, already have an account.

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Tuning Cruise Configuration ¶

Overview of constant altitude, level flight operation ¶.

“Hands-off” constant altitude hold cruising occurs in automatic throttle modes such as FBWB, CRUISE, AUTO, GUIDED, CIRCLE, LOITER, RTL, etc. See Flight Modes for the full list of automatic throttle modes.

In FBWB and CRUISE modes, without an airspeed sensor, the autopilot will set the target throttle at TRIM_THROTTLE with the throttle at mid-stick, and adjust pitch to hold altitude. The airspeed will be whatever results from the change in thrust. Raising the throttle stick will increase throttle and thereby airspeed.

When using an airspeed sensor, the autopilot will use throttle position to set the target airspeed as a linear interpolation between AIRSPEED_MAX and AIRSPEED_MIN . And pitch will be adjusted for constant altitude flight.

In the automatic throttle controlled modes, AIRSPEED_CRUISE is used for the target airspeed if an airspeed sensor is being used, while TRIM_THROTTLE will be set for the average throttle value if no sensor is used. In AUTO and GUIDED modes, the THROTTLE_NUDGE option allows the pilot to tweak these values while in flight with the throttle, if desired, in these modes.

While TRIM_THROTTLE is not used when using an airspeed sensor directly, it is important to set it at a working value since it will be used in case of an airspeed sensor failure.

AHRS Level Attitude ¶

During Accelerometer Calibration , a “level” attitude position is set with the wings and fuselage perfectly level. A plane can fly holding a constant altitude at range of speeds, depending on throttle level and Angle of Attack (AOA).

The AOA is usually several degrees but varies depending on cruise speed/throttle. This is the “trim level” pitch. This is explained in the diagrams above and is known as the “trim level” condition. While many planes will have some Angle of Incidence (i.e. the cord of the wing is at a positive angle to the fuselage cord) built-in, some do not, and some need a slightly higher AOA to fly at desired cruise speeds.

If the level step of calibration is done with the plane’s fuselage line level, initial flights will be safe, but the aircraft may not hold altitude at the desired flying speed in non-altitude controlled modes (i.e. require too much throttle to hold altitude and/or the cruising speed may be faster or slower than desired).

Adjusting FBWB or CRUISE Mode Airspeed ¶

The autopilot’s goal in automatic throttle modes is to obtain the correct combination of elevator and throttle to maintain constant altitude flight. How the autopilot does this is detailed in TECS (Total Energy Control System) for Speed and Height Tuning Guide .

When an Airspeed Sensor is Enabled ¶

In FBWB or CRUISE, the target airspeed can be directly controlled with the throttle stick position. Mid throttle will set the speed as halfway between AIRSPEED_MAX (high stick) and AIRSPEED_MIN (low stick).

The TRIM_THROTTLE parameter should be adjusted to the average throttle value used at cruise speed. It optimizes the bias point for the speed control loops and is used in case of airspeed failure.

While cruising, the artificial horizon in the OSD or GCS may show an average positive or negative pitch above the level indicator (ie fuselage/autopilot level). This means that the “trim level” pitch or AOA is different than what was set during the accelerometer calibration step. This can be trimmed out so that non altitude controlled modes fly at the same speed and throttle. Do this by adjusting the pitch trim, adding the desired degrees nose up or down using PTCH_TRIM_DEG . This also optimizes the speed control loop bias point and will allow non altitude controlled modes to fly level at the same throttle and speed.

Using PTCH_TRIM_DEG to adjust cruise attitude will also add an offset to the artificial horizon on a GCS or an OSD, but this can be disabled, if desired, using the FLIGHT_OPTIONS bitmask bits 8 and/or 9, if the attitude of the autopilot in level flight is desired, rather than a leveled artificial horizon when flying level .

Without an Airspeed Sensor ¶

Without an airspeed sensor, both the pitch trim and the TRIM_THROTTLE parameter would need to be changed appropriately for the desired mid-stick cruise speed.

Often planes need 2 or 3 degrees of pitch trim to fly at their optimum cruising speed/throttle rather than at the fuselage/autopilot level pitch, especially small light planes or gliders. This can be done at setup by:

(Preferred) Add the desired degrees nose up(usually) or down to PTCH_TRIM_DEG .

Position vehicle with a few degrees nose up or down during the first, Level step of accelerometer calibration to match the cruising attitude.

Position vehicle with a few degrees nose up and use the Calibrate Level button on the Mission Planner page. This adjusts the AHRS_TRIM parameters. AHRS_TRIM parameters can only change the difference between the autopilot’s plane and “level” by 10 degrees maximum. If more is needed, (e.g. the autopilot is mounted slightly downward), then you can use PTCH_TRIM_DEG to alter the AOA manually.

You can examine ATT.Pitch in the logs when at cruise speed in FBWB or CRUISE to determine the average pitch trim required in these modes. Appropriately adjusting PTCH_TRIM_DEG to lower this to zero when flying level in these modes.

when using PTCH_TRIM_DEG to adjust trim, it will be reflected in the ATT.Pitch log message, and also in the OSD and GCS horizon displays (ie level horizon pitch = PTCH_TRIM_DEG + the calibrated level pitch) so that the display will be level when flying “in trim” even though the plane’s pitch is different than the autopilots calibrated pitch.

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how well does TYM HST cruise & auto throttle work for bush hogging vs shuttle shift?

• Thread starter 2manyrocks
• Start date Jul 12, 2023

Super Member

I'm considering replacing my Mahindra 3525 gear drive 35 hp because it seems to be weeping transmission oil onto the brakes, the seals are not externally replaceable and dealer support near me is not what I want. The primary use has been to run a 6' rotary cutter. If I can get a decent trade in value, I may trade it towards a new TYM. One area TYM dealer has a T474HST or for about $3,000 more, a T494 shuttle shift for $30,250. I'm thinking the T494 shuttle shift might be able to run an 8' cutter where the T474HST couldn't? But one other question I have is how well the HST cruise control and auto throttle features work in comparison to a shuttle shift in real use. I'd like to be able to set and forget the RPM and ground speed down the straight cuts, but be able to throttle back to make the turns to come back the other direction while cutting much like I presently do with the gear drive. The areas I'm cutting have some modest changing slopes. I don't want to constantly adjust the HST pedal. So go for the cruise control/auto throttle with the HST or just get the shuttle shift?  

Epic Contributor

Well I dont think the T474 will fare well with an 8' twin. Too light and lower lift capacity. But the 494 specs out real similar to kubota MX......and I have mowed well over 1000 acres with an 8' twin cutter. But for me, its HST all the way for mowing. I do set the throttle and forget it. I dont have auto throttle, but have used tractors that do, and I wouldnt use it even if it had it. A rotary cutter is ALOT of rotating inertia....Im not gonna throttle down and back up and get the rotating mass all going again every time I want to turn. Now the cruise control....dont use it either. And the only time I would ever use it is for a more precise and consistant speed control for something like spraying, or broadcast seeding/fertilizer. But the beauty of the HST is you can infinitely change speed on the fly to match conditions. I have yet to come across a field that mowing conditions were consistent for the WHOLE field. So with HST, I "want" to go as fast as I can in medium range. But conditions dont always permit. Maybe the ground is rough, or I got to go slow around a tree, or hit a thick patch of tall dense stuff, or cross a little ditch from eroison, etc etc. SO I modulate speed on the fly....slow down when I need to, go fast when I can. My tractor DOES have CC, but I dont use it mowing. But all that said.....why overlook a 494HST? Best of both worlds. Gets you the bigger machine to handle a bigger mower if you choose....but still all the perks of a HST. Literally......myself going from a shuttle (and smaller machine) with a 6' cutter to going to a HST (no matter the cutter size) is like going from a garden tractor to a ZTR on your lawn.  

While my Branson has auto throttle, when I am using the rotary mower I set the throttle to the rpm that gives me 540 rpm at the PTO, which is about 2500. That's more than the auto throttle will give me, at least at the speeds I mow at. Then I adjust ground speed with the HST. If I had mowing that was long enough and without much grade change I'd use the cruise control, but mine's all on varying slopes with enough trees and brush to work around that I'm not at the same ground speed for long. The cruise on the Branson just sticks the HST pedal in place with a magnet. It doesn't adjust throttle or HST to try to keep the tractor the same speed like a car cruise control. Auto throttle is a cable between the HST pedal and injector pump. With the non Kujke TYMs that have EFI it may be more sophisticated.  

I went with the 574H to give me the additional size and a bit more PTO HP. I haven't tested out the cruise control yet, but it is a nice machine. Good luck! I don't remember where you are, but the prices are a wee bit higher than I paid.  

CloverKnollFarms

Elite member.

I have auto throttle and cruise. I don’t use auto throttle when I’m looking for PTO RPM. I set the throttle, then use cruise for speed control. Using AT when using PTO implements isn’t really what it’s made for  

CloverKnollFarms said: I have auto throttle and cruise. I don’t use auto throttle when I’m looking for PTO RPM. I set the throttle, then use cruise for speed control. Using AT when using PTO implements isn’t really what it’s made for Click to expand...

• Thread Starter

Dealer isn't interested in the Mahindra as a trade in.  

Always get more $$ selling outright anyhow.  

I don't know if I'd have to have it repaired before I could sell it myself. The nearest Mahindra dealer is 60 miles away. I asked them if they'd repair it and consignment sell it. They apparently aren't interested in the sale, either. They said "sales are real slow right now."  

I visited another TYM dealer (formerly Branson) to get a feel for what their dealership was like today. He had some smaller TYMs, but only one larger TYM and it was a 65hp cab I think. He showed me a 3515H ($26,625) and a shuttle shift 4820 at $31,000. I'm not really getting why TYM puts these shuttle shift paddles near the steering column because all they control is forward and reverse. The paddle lever is something else to bump into getting on and off the tractor. If the actual gear ranges and speeds are controlled by shift levers at the seat, why do they even bother with this shuttle shift paddle on the dash? The powershift lever on my Yanmar actually controls not just forward and reverse, but is also a three speed range selector. There's also a safety lock on the lever to engage before getting on and off the Yanmar. And the lever is much shorter making it less likely to bump.  

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• Celebrity Cruises

Can They Make Me a Moscow Mule?

By starri , May 24, 2017 in Celebrity Cruises

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Dumb question I know, but I've been wondering this for a while, and I don't think I've seen it answered. Obviously not offered in Vintages, the Martini Bar, or World-Class, but what about at the Sunset Bar or in Michael's?

Also, Pimm's Cup, same question.

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Yes to the Pimms in Michael's Club.

always_chasing

I was able to get a Moscow Mule at the World Class Bar on Equinox in December.

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Yay! Thanks so much.

Ensemble Lounge or Passport bar (I forget) also offered them on Equinox. They now offer Ginger Beer on the ship which you need for the "mule". :cool:

Vineyardfan

The Martini bar, Sunset bar, Passport bar and Ensemble lounge all normally carry both ginger ale and ginger beer, so you shouldn't have a problem (as long as the bartender is somewhat knowledgeable).

so you shouldn't have a problem (as long as the bartender is somewhat knowledgeable).

I don't know about the knowledgeable part...I asked for a Paralyzer in a few bars on my March 2017 B2B Constellation cruise and they had no idea until I finally found a "knowledgeable" bartender midway thru my second cruise. I also asked for a Pain Killer during my 30 days on the ship and no bartender knew how to make one or the desire to google it.

Lived on these on Solstice last October! The barman in Ensemble Lounge made the best one ever. I would often stop by to get one, or he also worked at the Sunset Bar so also got them there during the day. I know Mast Bar also made them but w're not as good IMO.

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I was able to get a Moscow Mule at the World Class Bar on Equinox in December.     Sent from my iPhone using Forums

Same for us...served in the copper mugs!

We're also on the Solstice. Do you remember his name?

I'm not really going on the cruise to drink, but I need a libation or two in evenings.

If you happen to find yourself on Qsine, they make a mighty fine version of the mule as well.

Tiggertastic

I've never found anyone to have the crystalised ginger but they still taste great

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Can you get one on the classic package? They have become a go to of mine here at home!

midwestchick

What is a Moscow mule? :confused: Never heard of it.

Vodka, ginger beer, and lime juice. Usually served in a special copper mug.

Are they good?

On the Solstice now and I've had several in the Passport bar

Dumb question I know, but I've been wondering this for a while, and I don't think I've seen it answered. Obviously not offered in Vintages, the Martini Bar, or World-Class, but what about at the Sunset Bar or in Michael's?   Also, Pimm's Cup, same question.

Never had a problem getting anything if they had the makings, even if you needed to explain how to make it.

I like them because they're not too sweet, and I really love the spiciness of the ginger. I don't really like sweet drinks, but I can do a Pimm's cup because of the cucumber and lemon.

I believe that when ordering more obscure drinks, or something that you might prefer to be made a certain way, you should know the ingredients and be able to communicate that to the bartender. I would not assume a bartender is going to Google a drink recipe. Perhaps a PARALYZER or PAIN KILLER are well known cocktails, but I have never heard of them.

We enjoy a top-shelf margarita made according to a recipe we enjoy at home. A friendly discussion with the bartenders at the Mast Bar and Michael's Club, along with instructions on the proper preparation, got us service with a smile... and a nearly perfect margarita each time.

Enjoy yourself!

The taste depends on the brand of ginger beer. There is Goslings, Bunderberg and Fever Tree to name the brands that they have had on board. Sometimes if you order one they may also use ginger ale. Fever Tree is rare. A 4 pack of 6.8oz bottles at the lowest price is about $5, available at Sur La Table for $8.

As with most drinks if you change the spirit it is a different drink. Use rum instead of vodka and it is a dark and stormy. That is usually made with Goslings Ginger Beer and Goslings rum. I prefer Kraken rum over the Goslings.

Drink up 🍷 🍹 🍺 🍸

The taste depends on the brand of ginger beer. There is Goslings, Bunderberg and Fever Tree to name the brands that they have had on board. Sometimes if you order one they may also use ginger ale.

I hope not. Ginger ale is too sweet.

Melissa at Mohair Meadows

Yes, Indeedy. I wave may magic wand and -- ping -- you are a Moscow mule.

(Definitely need a cruise).

what is it called when its made with Jameson, ginger beer and lime juice. I just bought those ingredients today but do not know what its called.

jayoldschool

We got them to make Irish Mules, and Kentucky Mules as well.

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• Regent Seven Seas Cruises

Best of Moscow by high speed train

By shuguley , February 15, 2014 in Regent Seven Seas Cruises

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Sure would appreciate someone who has taken "Best of Moscow by high speed train" from St. Petersburg could please share their impressions of this shore excursion. From the description this sounds like a very long day.

Wondering how the 4 hour train trip was in terms of accommodations, etc. Also what time did you leave the ship and what time at night did you return? Were both legs of the trip on the high speed rail (I read that slower trains also travel the same tracks)?

My wife and I are considering this excursion. We thought that if we are making all the effort to go to Russia then how could we pass up going to Moscow, walking in Red Square, seeing St. Basil, etc.

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If you are considering this on the 2015 June Baltic cruise on Voyager; my suggestion is don't. There is so much to do in St. Petersburg and although a train is one of my favorite ways to travel the time would be far better spent in St. P.

Thanks for the advice. Yes, this would be on the Voyager during the 2015 season but not yet sure exactly which cruise.

We did the Moscow excursion "on a different luxury line", but from your brief description it sounds very much like the same trip, so I will operate on that assumption. It is a VERY long day! We left the ship at 5:30 AM and returned at 12:30 AM. The highspeed train trip is comfortable, and while they call it "Business Class" it does not compare well to the equivalent class on say Rail Europe. When we did it in 2011, we did have highspeed both ways, and the trip back seemed much longer as the adrenaline and excitement had worn off!:D

Moscow itself is not that terribly different from any other big city in the world, but this Cold War kid never thought he would ever stand in Red Square, never mind walk the grounds of The Kremlin, or tour The Kremlin Palace, or see (but not visit) Lenin's Tomb, or visit The Armoury. But he did, and he loved every minute of it! Yes, it is a long day, and you barely scratch a scratch on the surface, but it is worth it. There is a tremendous amount to see in St. Petersburg, but every Baltic cruise goes to St. Petersburg, so you can go back if you choose to. Not every cruiseline offers you the chance to see Moscow.

I have not personally done this tour, but our last time in St Petersburg, the private guide that we hired for a day was leading the regent tour to Moscow on the high speed train the next day. He said it was way better than the previous alternative, which was flying to Moscow and back. He said that you actually got to Moscow faster because you didn't have to deal with airline checkin etc. it did seem like a very long day to me, and there is so much to see and do in st. Petersburg that I didn't consider doing it.

countflorida

We toured to Moscow from St. Petersburg via the hi-speed SAPSAN train last September, from a Baltic cruise on the Oceania Marina. You need to have a two-night, three day port call in St. Petersburg to take this tour because the tour typically leaves the ship around 5:00 - 5:30 AM and doesn't return until after midnight the next day. We didn't take the ship's tour; we made private arrangements with TravelAllRussia for three days of touring, the first and third days in St. Petersburg and the second day the tour to Moscow by train. Our cost for the private tour for three days was about the same as what the ship charged for the excursion to Moscow alone. There are a number of private tour agencies that operate in St. Petersburg and offer the Moscow train tours; we would strongly recommend them over the ship's tours.

All three days had private guides with car and driver. The second day, the driver picked us up at the ship and took us to the train, but we were alone on the train, and met in Moscow by the guide on the station platform. After our tour and dinner, we were brought back to the train and after the return train trip met by the driver and taken back to the ship. Because you are alone on the train you must have your own Russian visas.

If this is your first visit to St. Petersburg, I would agree there is much more to see there. We found Moscow somewhat a disappointment, particularly Red Square. The Kremlin and the cathedral in Red Square were also worth seeing. But the best thing we saw was the Moscow subway! I worked for the Washington Metro system back in the 1980s as it grew from 40 to 80 miles and although I was in the computer area, I learned a lot about the challenges of running a subway system. We used the Moscow system to get across the city from where we had dinner to the train station, and I was amazed at the cleanliness', speed of operation, the short headways maintained, and the courtesy of everyone involved. A very impressive experience!

We had been to St. Petersburg before, and so had the time to take a day and go to Moscow. Also, I really like trains, and the SAPSAN is a German train set running on Russian rails. Seats are like first class domestic air, spacious but not too plush or comfortable, but with enough room. Not too much recline, and almost 8 hours on the train in two shots is a lot for an old man. They come through and sell drinks, candy, etc. but the sellers don't speak English and no one around us helped, so we had just poor coffee once coming, and brought stuff with us for the trip back. Not too much to see from the train either, particularly on the return when it is night the whole way.

If you decide to go, take a private tour and avoid the overly expensive ship's tour. I'm glad we did it, but wouldn't bother to repeat the tour; we've seen Moscow.

Thanks so much to all of you for the thorough and thought insight. Yhe information you have provided is most helpful.

countflorida: Your detailed post is very helpful. We are not quite ready for a Baltic cruise but should do so within a year. Time enough to do our pre travel research, bookings and visa gathering.:) Thank you!

Emperor Norton

Sure would appreciate someone who has taken "Best of Moscow by high speed train" from St. Petersburg could please share their impressions of this shore excursion. From the description this sounds like a very long day.   Wondering how the 4 hour train trip was in terms of accommodations, etc. Also what time did you leave the ship and what time at night did you return? Were both legs of the trip on the high speed rail (I read that slower trains also travel the same tracks)?   My wife and I are considering this excursion. We thought that if we are making all the effort to go to Russia then how could we pass up going to Moscow, walking in Red Square, seeing St. Basil, etc.

I did this on Seabourn. IMO DONT. Take Aeroflop (er Aeroflot). The train has non folding seats where you are literally knee to knee with your fellow passenger (facing each other). Further they don't believe in air conditioning. It's also the worlds slowed bullet train. I think I would have found more enjoyment wandering around the St. Petersburg and Moscow airports.

Countflorida,

This is a little off topic,, however we had planned a river cruise in Russia but decided we would rather stay on land and have booked about two weeks with Travel-All-Russia using the private guide and driver. I'm curious as to how you found them as a tour company.

The guides they provided were fine. We had a different guide each of the days in St. Petersburg, but both were flexible, pleasant, knowledgeable and spoke English very well, as did the guide in Moscow, incidentally. She was a bit aloof, distant, not too friendly, but otherwise fine. In fact, she was the one who suggested taking the Metro, which unexpectedly became one of the highlights of the Moscow excursion. If I have a complaint with AllTravelRussia, it is with their plan and its execution (more later).

I had requested emphasis on World War II (in Russia, the Great Patriotic War) sites and info. In scheduling us, they weren't careful about dates and a couple of the sites we wanted to see were scheduled on the third day, after we'd been to Moscow. But both sites were closed that day of the week, and that info was readily available, right on web sites describing them. Also, the included meals (lunches in St. Pete, dinner in Moscow) were not what we asked for: light meals with some choices, so we could avoid things we didn't like and choose things we did like. My request was ignored; we were given full Russian meals with a fixed menu, no choice. On the first day, a fish dish was the entre, but I am allergic to fish. Fortunately, I had the e-mail I'd sent with me and showed it to the guide, and she was able to change my entre to chicken, which was very good actually. But we didn't want a 3-4 course lunches or dinner (in Moscow). We had the guide drop the lunch the third day, although we never got any credit or refund. But, particularly in contrast to the ship's tours, the prices were so reasonable we didn't worry too much about it.

The people who were on the ship's tour to Moscow saw us boarding the same train for which they were forced to queue up and wait on the way back, and asked us what we had done. I was candid and open so they were not happy when I explained what we had arranged and particularly what it had cost. Also, when we returned to the ship, we found they had laid on a late supper for those who had gone to Moscow, so up we went and had something. Well, it turns out the late supper was supposed to be just for those on the ship's tour, but we and others on 'independent' tours, there were a dozen or more of us, crashed the party, actually got there first, and they didn't realize it until the larger group arrived and there weren't enough tables/places set. By that time, the 'independents' had all gotten served and were eating; what could they do?

A couple from the larger group sat down with us and asked us about our tour, and they were the ones I told about our arrangement and its cost. They turned to others who’d been with them and announced the details, loudly enough so the whole room heard, which started a lot of bitching and complaining. I gathered they weren't very happy with the ship's tour to begin with, and this was the straw that broke the camel's back. We finished up and beat it out of there, but overheard later that one of the excursion staff came to check on something and ran into a real mess. I caught a cold on the trip, which forced me to bed the second day following in Tallinn, so by the time we reappeared we heard about the contretemps' but apparently no one recalled who started it, thankfully.

Because of what happened to us, I would probably not use AllTravelRussia if I were to go again, or if I did, I would be sure to get confirmation of every detail of the tour. They do have good reviews generally, and we were certainly helped by their visa department and liked the guides and drivers. Their weakness, I say now with full 20:20 hindsight, is that once the sales person who plans the tour, sells it to you and collects your money, he (or she) transfers the plan to their Russia office for implementation; there is no follow-up to make sure it gets done right. And that is where our problems arose; we paid for a custom tour but got a standard package with a few destinations switched, and no one checked them out, even to see when they were open the day we were scheduled to go. If you check every detail that’s important to you, it should be OK, but that’s a hell of a way to have to do business, in my opinion.

Thank you for the 20/20 hindsight observation on your Russian tour operator, and better priced than the ship's excursion cost.

Thanks very much for the feedback.

We had the same experience as you so far as price. We originally booked a Viking Cruise but, hearing some things about the river cruises that made us unhappy, looked into other options. T-A-R cost the same or less than a cruise and had us in hotels for 11 days. We opted for the private tour. They have three tour levels, based on hotels. We originally opted for the four star as it did not cost much more than the three star hotels. Finally we decided to throw it all in and upgraded to five star. In Moscow we will be at the newly opened Kempinsky which is two blocks from Red Square. In St. Petersburg it is the Grand Hotel Europe, one of the most vaunted luxury hotels in Russia. Location is important for us as the tours use up only part of the day so being in the center of everything for our independent touring is important. As with many other cities, the less you pay, the farther out of the center of town you are.

We have been working with our salesman in D.C. and he seems to get back to us with the changes we want. He recently returned from Russia so is up on everything. When I asked they said they paid the full TA commission if I wanted so I got my usual TA on board so he is watching our back and giving us that extra level of comfort. He also set up our air, which I know pays him little or nothing, and got us business class for much less than T-A-R wanted for economy, though it took working for a while with a consolidator. He's happy to get his 10 percent on this trip without having booked it. He also took care of the trip insurance. We've been doing a lot of research on the CC sister site Trip Advisor and will write a report there. We will, I guess, become a source of info for CC members after having spent 5 days in Moscow and 6 in SP.

• 4 months later...

scubacruiserx2

Anybody considering a day trip to Moscow from St. Petersburg on the Sapsan may want to look at our travelogue filled with pictures.

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1927687

Very informative. Thanks dor sharing. Jeff

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