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If you are resident in Khartoum and would like to book a tour or overnights in our properties in Meroe and Karima, please contact:

Italian Tourism Co. Ltd. Street 31 – Al Amarat Karthoum – Sudan Tel. (+249) 1 83487961 or  (+249) 1 83486004 E-Mail: [email protected]

For all other enquires about our scheduled tours and expeditions, Private and Tailor – made itineraries, Hotel booking in Sudan, Business Travel, MICE, please contact our International office. We will be pleased to reply with the most suitable answers, custom formalities and tour conditions.

International booking office: Direct line: (+39) 331 5416663 (Whatsapp only) Email: [email protected] (If you do not receive our reply within 24 hours from submitting your request, please forward it to: [email protected] )

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We will aknowledge your email within 24 hours from when you send it (excluding week-ends). If you do not receive a reply from us within this time, please check your spam box or forward again your email. Thank you for the kind cooperation.

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Street 31 Al Amarat Kharthoum SUDAN Tel. (+249) 1 83487961 Fax (+249) 1 83487962

[email protected] www.italtoursudan.com

Year of establishment : 2000

Number of Staff : 55

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Languages spoken : English, Arabic, Italian, Spanish, German and French

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Italian Tourism Co. is the largest DMC in northern Sudan. We are specialized in archaeological and cultural tours, desert expeditions, MICE and business travel. A professional approach, care for details, experienced tour leaders and high-quality food and equipment are part of the Italian Tourism Company.

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Sudan - A Travel Agent and an Itinerary

• How many hours of driving is included per day? Is it on road or off road?Distances are long, if you don't like time in the car think about how to  modify your itinerary to suit.
• How many people will be in the vehicle? What kind of 4x4 is it? We saw people in pickups with extended cabs - which are far less comfortable than an SUV.
• In the simple Nubian guesthouses you may have a private bathroom but this doesn't mean it's ensuite. Remember the hot water may come in a bucket, you might want to ask if there's a western style toilet.
• Where will you eat, are you happy to eat at small local restaurants or not? We had a cook for the first four night outside of Khartoum and we ate very well but it made for a more crowded vehicle.
• Are the archeological fees included in the price?  Can the agent arrange a visa on arrival and what is the cost for doing so?
• How long has the guide been working in the field? Will you get a chance to walk about or have time on your own. We needed this and  Waleed and Ayad the guide worked hard to ensure we had enough time to ourselves.
• What is the payment schedule? Given the US financial sanctions against Sudan sending money to a local agent may be complicated. We paid nothing an advance and brought US dollars on arrival, which also protects you against any radical change in circumstance including social and political instability.

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Africa , Budget Travel Ideas , SUDAN

The ideal sudan travel itinerary.

Wildly off the beaten track, and all the more exciting for it, Sudan is still very much a burgeoning travel destination… but one that has huge potential.

Travelling overland from Cape Town to Cairo , I passed through Sudan and spent 2 amazing weeks here in a country that defied all expectation.

Because I have to say, I was pretty intimidated by the thought of travelling as a solo female in Sudan. However I bit the bullet and went for it… and boy am I glad.

With some of the friendliest people in Africa – quite a claim in these here parts – some wildly amazing desert landscapes, mind-blowing ancient pyramids and prices that are so cheap it’s hard to fathom, there’s no doubt that my experience of travelling in Sudan will stay with for me a long time.

And so, to help encourage others to also explore this incredible country and to assist in some trip planning, here’s my ideal Sudan travel itinerary…

Related Posts

• 15 Amazing Things to Do in Khartoum, Sudan
• Is Sudan Safe for Solo Female Travellers?
• How to Travel Overland from Ethiopia to Sudan and onto Egypt

This page contains affiliate links meaning Big World Small Pockets may receive a small commission on any purchases at no extra cost to you.

All prices given are correct at the time of publication.

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Day 1-3: khartoum.

With the only international airport in the country, Khartoum is probably the most likely place you’ll be starting your Sudan travels.

It’s also a great place to find your feet in this culturally different country and to help you get some travel admin sorted like visa registration and your travel permit.

FOR MORE INFO SEE: The 33 Things You Need to Know about Sudan Travel

As such, I’d advise giving yourself at least 3 days in Khartoum as there really is an amazing wealth of treasures to be unearthed in this very safe city – in fact I was amazed just how much there was to do here!

From the incredible National Museum with its wealth of ancient treasures, through to local cultural attractions such as camel markets and Sufi dancing ceremonies, right up to taking tea by the Nile and exploring this river’s beautiful islands, Khartoum is a surprisingly rich feast.

I actually ended up spending 6 nights in Khartoum –  a lot to do with how lovely my couchsurfer host was – and also enjoyed checking out Souk Shabi, Ozone Café and marvelling at the presidential palace.

THE BEST TRAVEL INSURANCE FOR SUDAN

I would never think of travelling to Sudan without proper coverage and always recommend travel insurance from World Nomads which I’ve used during my time in this country and throughout Africa.

I love their great coverage of – crucial for travel in a country like Sudan – as well as their excellent customer service and ability to claim online, which is very handy if you’re travelling in remote places for a long time.

Day 4: Meroe

It’s time to start heading north up the Nile after you’re finished in Khartoum as this is where many of Sudan’s treasures lie.

First up, I suggest heading to the Meroe Pyramids, which are located near the town of Shendi where you can find some cheap budget accommodations options.

Getting a bus here from Khartoum is easy and will take only 2-3 hours, but I’d suggest heading off early, as you’ll want to get to Shendi in the morning, so you have plenty of time to dump your bags and then head out of town to see the pyramids in the afternoon.

Otherwise, you can treat yourself to an amazing night in the Meroe Camp, which is an accommodation option located right by the pyramids, literally in the middle of the sand dunes!

Owned by the Italian Tour Company – Sudan , the Meroe Camp is definitely not a budget option, but it’s wild desert safari tents and epic pyramid views go some way to justifying the expense.

LEARN MORE: An Oasis in the Sudanese Desert: Meroe Camp

If you are going to stay at the Meroe Camp, you can continue on the bus past Shendi and then literally ask the driver to drop you off on the highway when you see the pyramids on your right-hand side.

If there’s any confusion, just ask for the “ Tarabil ”, which is pyramid in Arabic.

The camp will then come and collect you from the highway, although you’ll need to call them, which is why I recommend getting a Sudanese SIM card during your travels here.

Read More About Getting a SIM in Sudan HERE .

Wherever you end up staying, I’d recommend reaching the pyramids around 4pm so you can enjoy a stellar sunset there and walk around these ancient structures without getting burnt to a crisp by the desert sun!

Camel rides are also possible here and can be a lot of fun!

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Day 5: Atbara

To be honest there isn’t a lot to see in Atbara, but it makes a good stopover on your Sudan itinerary from Shendi / Meroe and means you don’t have to rush in the morning of day 5.

Atbara is also a good opportunity to see a real working Sudanese town as it’s likely you’ll be the only tourist there.

Stay at Adel Hotel, which has rooms for 500 SDP, free wifi and English-speaking staff.

From here you can walk around the town, exploring the souk and railway museum.

Day 6-7: Karima

Probably my favourite town in the whole of Sudan, it’s worth giving yourself 2 nights to explore Karima and its surrounds.

Staying in Atbara the night before will allow you to set off earlier to Karima and you’ll likely arrive there in just a few hours, meaning you’ll have the rest of the day to discover this beautiful desert town.

Heading to the souk is a great thing to do here, especially on Mondays, which is market day.

With plenty of friendly and colourful characters to be found, walking to the edge of town will also give you a chance to snap the mighty Nile, which cruises past here bringing its life-saving water supply with it.

Then, later in the afternoon, it’s time to head to the town’s most famous attraction, its pyramids.

Free to enter and with not another soul in sight (at least when I visited), this is an amazing spectacle set in the middle of the dunes on the edge of town – maybe a 15-20 minute walk away.

After the pyramids, it’s time to scale the nearby Jebel Bharkal – the sunset and epic views this sacred mountain gives over the surrounding sandscape are quite incredible.

You can also look down on some temple ruins from Jebel Bharkal, as well as snap the town of Karima from an impressive height.

The next day head out of Karima to explore some other of the historical attractions that lie around this town, including the Nuri Pyramids and also the tombs at El-Kerra.

Public buses run to both of these, or else there are taxis can take you too.

When it comes to staying in Karima, there’s 1 budget option in town – Nasa Hotel.

Otherwise the ITC-run Nubian Rest House, is another insane splurge that might just capture you with its proximity to the pyramids and level of European luxury.

Day 8: Dongala / Kerma

From Karima it’s time to continue your Sudan travel itinerary north.

Head towards the town of Dongala and either use this as a base to explore Old Dongala, or swap buses and continue onto the town of Kerma (pronounced Karma).

I opted for Kerma on the back of a recommendation by a Sudanese travel guide I met in Karima who told me this town houses some of the most important ruins in the whole country.

From Dongala, the bus will drop you on the highway outside Kerma and you can then hop on another local minivan to get into the town itself at a cost of just 5 SDP.

Staying at the wonderful Nile Hotel in Kerma is a must, where the friendly owner Abdul Aziz will look after you in true Sudanese style.

A bed here costs just 30 SDP – that’s $1 USD – and Abdul speaks good English, so please call him on +113 265 238 if you have any problems finding the place.

His brother also has a delicious falafel stall set up right outside and can fill you up for just 5 SDP a sandwich!

Once you’ve settled in at the Nile Hotel, head to Duffufa , which is the main archaeological site near the town.

There’s a great little museum here, where the very intelligent and interesting manager – Muthof – kindly showed me around.

It’s best to get a taxi to Duffufa from the Nile Hotel and then ask the driver to wait for you, as you can see the whole place in under an hour. Don’t pay more than 100 SDP.

Entry to the Museum is 25 SDP and entrance to the archaeological site is meant to be $10 USD, but tell the guard you don’t need a receipt and 100 SDP should do it!

You will also need your passport to get in here.

5 Essential Packing Items for Sudan

#1 Headscarf or Sarong – Female travellers especially may feel they want to wear a headscarf in Sudan to fit in. Although it’s not strictly necessary, it may make life easier.

#2 Long, Thin Trousers – Legs need to be covered in this strict Islamic culture, but due to the extremely hot climate, having a thin linen or cotton pair like this is ideal.

#3 Sunglasses – Did I mention Sudan was hot! Like 40 degree hot. Sunglasses are essential here to protect your eyes from the UV rays and the dust!

#4 Long-Sleeved Thin Top – Like legs, arms should be covered in Sudan, so a thin, long-sleeved top like this one is going to be necessary.

#5 Arabic Phrasebook – Even in the capital of Sudan, few people speak English, so getting your hands on the Lonely Planet Egyptian Arabic Phrasebook before you leave home will help you in this country no end!

Day 9: Soleb Temple & Abri

Leave Kerma on day 8 of your Sudan itinerary and head towards to the Nubian town of Abri.

On the way, you can jump off the bus and make a side trip to Soleb Temple, which is situated on an island in the middle of the Nile.

Local fisherman can take you across.

Then it’s back on the bus to Abri, where the Nubian Guest House, also known as Megzoub Guest House, is a lovely place to stay for 300 SDP a night.

Situated on the banks of the Nile, the traditional décor here and free wifi make it a great spot to relax for the afternoon.

You can also visit the Souk in town and stroll round the village, where you’re likely to be invited into peoples’ homes multiple times in true Sudanese style!

Day 10: Wadi Halfa

Finish your Sudan itinerary in the border town of Wadi Halfa, from where you can easily cross into Egypt in the morning.

Hotel ElHarm is a great place to stay in the centre of town, with the Souk and bus station all within easy walking distance.

Rooms cost 150 SDP here and there’s free wifi and an English-speaking owner.

Book your border bus ticket for Egypt that night and get ready for a full day of country-crossing adventure starting at 7am in the morning!

LEARN MORE: How to Travel from Sudan to Egypt Overland

More Time For Your Sudan Travel Itinerary?

With more time up your sleeve in Sudan, I’d recommend heading to the south of the country and a small town called Wassala that I heard a lot of good things about.

Otherwise the coastal destination of Port Sudan can give you your ocean fix.

PIN IT TO PINTEREST!

So there you have it, my ideal Sudan travel itinerary.

I hope you enjoy your time in this fascinating country as much as I did mine.

And please, do let me know your stories below. Sudan sees so few tourists it would be really great to hear from others who have been there…

Creator of Big World Small Pockets, Stephanie Parker is a travel addict! Originally from Jersey in the Channel Islands, Stephanie adventures the world collecting tips, advice and stories, to share with a smile

4 thoughts on “ The Ideal Sudan Travel Itinerary ”

My husband and I and our two sons, 2 and 9mo, moved to Dongola in 1978, for 5 years. He was beginning an agricultural project north of Dongola. It was a wonderful five years during which we made many friends there. My 2 year-old picked up Arabic quickly and became my little translater. We traveled all over Northern Sudan and were welcomed into local homes everywhere we traveled. It was a great 5 years.

Cheryl, this is a truly wonderful story – thank you so much for sharing your unique experience and for corroborating that the Sudanese people are some of the friendliest in the world! It would be so interesting to know how much it has changed since 1978 – have you been back since?

How did you manage to get such good prices for accommodation? I am here in Mezhoub’s guesthouse (16th Dec 2019.) and rooms are $20 USD. (I am camping for 300 Sudanese pounds). I was in El Harm, Wadi Halfa, two days ago, 600 Sudanese pounds for a room and no WiFi. Thank you for the information. Assuming the Nile Hotel in Kerma is still cheap, I will look to stay here.

Hi Benjamin, thanks for your question, I actually travelled in Sudan in 2018 and the prices haven’t been updated since then. Surprised to learn they have jumped so much, but really appreciate you taking the time to relay them here so that other travellers can get a better idea of the current rates. Enjoy your travels in Sudan and thanks for taking the time to comment. Best, Steph 🙂

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The Opening Days of Trump’s First Criminal Trial

Here’s what has happened so far in the unprecedented proceedings against a former u.s. president..

This transcript was created using speech recognition software. While it has been reviewed by human transcribers, it may contain errors. Please review the episode audio before quoting from this transcript and email [email protected] with any questions.

It’s the first day of the Trump trial and just walking out the door in my house. It’s a beautiful day, 6:11 AM. The thing that keeps running through my head is it’s kind of amazing that hundreds of jurors are going to show up at the Manhattan courthouse. And some of them are going to know what they’re there for — probably talking to their friends, their relatives about it.

Some of them are going to learn this morning talking to other jurors in line, asking what all the fuss is about. But I really do imagine that there’s going to be at least one potential juror who, headphones on, getting into court. Here they’re going to be there for the first criminal trial of Donald J. Trump. And just, I mean, how would you react?

[MUSIC PLAYING]

From “The New York Times,” I’m Michael Barbaro. This is “The Daily.” Today, what it’s been like inside the lower Manhattan courtroom, where political and legal history are being made? My colleague, Jonah Bromwich, on the opening days of the first criminal trial of a US President. It’s Thursday, April 18.

Is that his mic? Hi, there.

Hello. How are you?

I’m doing good.

OK. Thank you for coming in, Jonah —

Thank you for having me.

— in the middle of a trial. Can you just explain why you’re able to even be here?

Sure. So we happen to be off on Wednesdays during trial, so.

We being not “The New York Times,” but the courts.

That’s right.

Which is why we’re taping with you. And because we now have two full court days of this history-making trial now under our belts. And the thing about this trial that’s so interesting is that there are no cameras in the courtroom for the wider world.

There’s no audio recordings. So all we really have is and your eyes and your notebook, maybe your laptop. And so we’re hoping you can reconstruct for us the scene of the first two days of this trial and really the highlights.

Yeah, I’d be happy to. So on Monday morning, I left the subway. It’s before 7:00 AM. The sun is just rising over these grandiose court buildings in lower Manhattan.

I’m about to turn left onto Center Street. I’m right in front of the big municipal building.

And I turn onto Center Street. That’s where the courthouses are.

I’m crossing.

And I expected to see a big crowd. And it was even bigger than I had anticipated.

Here we go. Here we go. Here we go. Now, I finally see the crowd.

You have camera banks. You have reporters. You have the beginnings of what will eventually become a protest. And you have this most New York thing, which is just a big crowd of people.

[CHUCKLES]: Who just know something is going on.

That’s right. And what they know is going on is, of course, the first trial of an American president.

All right, I’m passing the camera, folks. Camera, camera, camera, camera. Here we go.

Let’s start with Sharon Crowley live outside the courthouse in Lower Manhattan.

I want to get right to ABC’S Aaron Katersky who’s outside of the courthouse.

Robert Costa is following it outside the courthouse in Lower Manhattan. Bob, I saw the satellite trucks lined up all in a row. Good morning.

Talk to us how we got here exactly.

So this is the case that was brought by the Manhattan district attorney. So prosecutors have accused Donald Trump of covering up the actions of his former fixer, Michael Cohen, after Cohen paid hush money to Stormy Daniels. Stormy Daniels had a story about having had sex with Donald Trump, which Trump has always denied.

Cohen paid her money, and then Trump reimbursed Cohen. And prosecutors say that Trump essentially defrauded the American people because he hid this information that could have been very important for the election from those people when he reimbursed Cohen.

Right. And as I remember it, he also misrepresented what that reimbursement was. Claimed it was a legal fee when, in fact, it was just reimbursing Michael Cohen for a hush money payment.

Exactly, yeah. He definitely didn’t say reimbursement for hush money payment to Stormy Daniels. It’s a cover up case. It’s a case about hiding information you don’t want people to see.

Right. And of course, the context of all this is that it is in the middle of a presidential election. It’s 2016. Trump wants to keep this secret, prosecutors allege, so that the American public doesn’t know about it and potentially hold it against him.

Right. And prosecutors are telling a story about election interference. They’re saying that Trump interfered with an election. And Trump himself is also using the phrase “election interference.” But he’s painting the trial itself as election interference as he now runs again in 2024.

Fascinating.

And because we’re in Manhattan, and because the jury pool is going to be largely Democratic, and the judge is a Democrat, and the district attorney is a Democrat, Trump keeps claiming he cannot get a fair shake. This is democrat central. And in democrat central, Trump doesn’t have a chance.

OK. So, what happens once you actually enter the courthouse?

Outside, there’s all this fanfare. But inside, it’s a little bit business as usual. So I go up to the 15th floor, and I walk into the courtroom, and I sit down, and it’s the same old courtroom. And we’re sitting and waiting for the former president.

Around 9:30, Trump walks in. He looks thin. He looks a little tired, kind of slumping forward, as if to say with his body like let’s get this over with. Here we go.

The judge walks in a little bit after that. And we think we’re all set for the trial to start, but that’s not what happens here. And in fact, there are a series of legal arguments about what the trial is going to look like and what evidence is going to be allowed in.

So, for example, prosecutors ask that they be allowed to admit into evidence headlines from “The National Enquirer” that were attacks on Trump’s 2016 opponents — on Ted Cruz, on Marco Rubio, on Ben Carson.

Because prosecutors are in some sense putting Trump’s 2016 campaign on trial. These headlines are a big part of that because what prosecutors say they show is that Trump had this ongoing deal with “The National Enquirer.” And the publisher would promote him, and it would publish damaging stories about his opponents. And then crucially, it would protect Trump from negative stories. And that’s exactly what prosecutors say happened with Stormy Daniels. That “The National Enquirer” tipped Cohen off about Stormy Daniels trying to sell her story of having had sex with Donald Trump, which he denies. And that led to the hush money payment to her. So what prosecutors are doing overall with these headlines is establishing a pattern of conduct. And that conduct, they say, was an attempt to influence the election in Trump’s favor.

And the judge agrees. He’s going to admit this evidence. And this is a pretty big win for the prosecution. But even though they win that one, they’re not winning everything.

They lose some important arguments here. One of them was that after the Access Hollywood tape came out, there were allegations of sexual assault against Donald Trump. And you know this, Michael, because you reported two of them — two of the three in question at this very trial.

Prosecutors had hoped to talk about those during trial in front of the jury to show the jurors that the Trump campaign was really, really focused on pushing back against bad press in the wake of the Access Hollywood tape in which Trump seemed to describe sexual assault. That was a big problem for the campaign. Campaign did everything it could to push back, including against these allegations that surfaced in the wake of the tape.

But the judge, saying that the allegations are hearsay — that they’re based on the women’s stories — says absolutely not. That is incredibly prejudicial to the defendant.

Interesting.

And that Donald Trump would actually not get a fair trial were those allegations to be mentioned. And so he will not let those in. The jurors will not hear about them.

So this is a setback, of course, for the prosecution, a victory for Trump’s legal team.

It’s a setback. And it also just shows you how these pre-trial motions shape the context of the trial. Think of the trial as a venue like a theater or an athletic contest of some sort. And these pre-trial motions are about what gets led into the arena and what stays out. The sexual assault allegations — out. “The National Enquirer” headlines — in.

OK. And how is Trump sitting there at the defense table reacting to these pre-trial motion rulings from the judge?

Well, as I’ve just said, this is very important stuff for his trial.

Right. Hugely important.

But it’s all happening in legal language, and I’m decoding it for you. But if you were sitting there listening to it, you might get a little lost, and you might get a little bored. And Trump, who is not involved in these arguments, seems to fall asleep.

Seems to fall asleep — you’re seeing this with your own eyes.

What we’re seeing, overall, including our colleague, Maggie Haberman, who’s in the overflow room and has a direct view of Trump’s face — I’m sitting behind him in the courtroom, so I can’t see his face that well.

You guys are double teaming this.

That’s right. I’m sitting behind him, but Maggie is sitting in front of him. And what she sees is not only that his eyes are closed. That wouldn’t get you to he is asleep.

And we have to be really careful about reporting that he’s asleep, even if it seems like a frivolous thing. But what happens is that his head is dropping down to his chest, and then it’s snapping back up. So you’ve seen that, when a student —

I’ve done that.

(CHUCKLES) Yeah. We all kind of know that feeling of snapping awake suddenly. And we see the head motion, and it happens several times.

Lawyers kind of bothering him, not quite shaking him, but certainly trying to get his attention. And that head snapping motion, we felt confident enough to report that Trump fell asleep.

During his own criminal trial’s opening day.

Does someone eventually wake him up?

He wakes up. He wakes up. And in fact, in the afternoon, he’s much more animated. It’s almost as if he wants to be seen being very much awake.

Right. So once these pre-trial motions are ruled on and Trump is snapped back to attention, what happens?

Well, what happens in the courtroom is that the trial begins. The first trial of an American president is now in session. And what marks that beginning is jurors walking into the room one by one — many of them kind of craning their necks over at Donald Trump, giggling, raising their eyebrows at each other, filing into the room, and being sworn in by the judge. And that swearing in marks the official beginning of the trial.

The beginning is jury selection, and it’s often overlooked. It’s not dramatized in our kind of courtroom dramas in the same way. But it’s so important. It’s one of the most important parts of the case. Because whoever sits on the jury, these are the 12 people who are going to decide whether Trump is guilty or whether Trump is innocent.

So how does jury selection actually look and feel and go?

So, jury selection is a winnowing process. And in order to do that, you have to have these people go through a bunch of different hurdles. So the first hurdle is, after the judge describes the case, he asks the group — and there are just short of 100 of them — whether they can be fair and impartial. And says that if they can’t, they should leave. And more than half the group is instantly gone.

So after we do this big mass excusal, we’re left with the smaller group. And so now, jurors are getting called in smaller groups to the jury box. And what they’re going to do there is they’re going to answer this questionnaire.

And this part of the process is really conducted by the judge. The lawyers are involved. They’re listening, but they’re not yet asking questions of the jurors themselves.

And what’s on the questionnaire?

Well, it’s 42 questions. And the questions include, their education, their professional histories, their hobbies, what they like to do whether you’re a member of QAnon or Antifa.

Whether you’re far left or far right.

That’s right. Whether you’ve read “The Art of the Deal,” Trump’s book, which some prospective jurors had.

Right. It was a bestseller in its time.

That’s right. And some of it can be answered in yes/no questions, but some of it can be answered more at length. So some of the prospective jurors are going very, very fast. Yes, no, no, no, yes.

Right. Because this is an oral questionnaire.

That’s right. But some of them are taking their time. They’re expanding on their hobbies. So the potential juror in seat 3, for example, is talking about her hobbies. And she says some running, hiking. And then she said, I like to go to the club, and it got a huge laugh. And you get that kind of thing in jury selection, which is one of the reasons it’s so fun. It’s the height of normality in this situation that is anything but normal.

Right. The most banal answer possible delivered in front of the former president And current Republican nominee for president.

Well, that’s one of the fascinating parts about all this, right? is that they’re answering in front of Trump. And they’re answering questions about Trump in front of Trump. He doesn’t react all that much. But whenever someone says they’ve read “The Art of the Deal —” and there are a few of those — he kind of nods appreciatively, smiles. He likes that. It’s very clear. But because there are so many questions, this is taking forever, especially when people are choosing to answer and elaborate and digress.

This is when you fall asleep.

This Is. When I would have fallen asleep if I were a normal person.

And by the end of the day. Where does jury selection stand?

Well, the questionnaire is another device for shrinking that jury pool. And so the questionnaire has almost these little obstacles or roadblocks, including, in fact, a question that jurors have seen before — whether they would have any problem being fair and impartial?

Hmm. And they ask it again.

They’re asked it again. And they’re asked in this more individualized way. The judge is questioning them. They’re responding.

So, remember that woman who said she liked to go to the club got a big laugh. She reaches question 34. And question 34 reads, “Do you have any strong opinions or firmly-held beliefs about former President Donald Trump or the fact that he is a current candidate for president that would interfere with your ability to be a fair and impartial juror?” She said, yes, she does have an opinion that would prevent her from being fair and impartial. And she, too, is excused.

So that’s how it works. People answer the questionnaire, and they get excused in that way, or they have a scheduling conflict once they reach the jury box. And so to answer your question, Michael. At the end of day one, given all these problems with the questionnaire and the length of time it’s taken to respond to and people getting dismissed based on their answers, there is not a single juror seated for this trial.

And it’s starting to look like this is going to be a really hard case for which to find an impartial jury.

That’s the feeling in the room, yeah.

We’ll be right back.

So Jonah, let’s turn to day 2. What does jury selection look like on Tuesday?

So when the day begins, it looks almost exactly like it looked when the day ended on Monday. We’re still with the questionnaire, getting some interesting answers. But even though it feels like we’re going slow, we are going.

And so we’ve gone from about 100 people to now there’s about 24 the room there’s 18 the jury box. And by the time we hit lunch, all those people have answered all those questions, and we are ready for the next step in the process.

Voir dire. And what it is the heart of jury selection. This is the point where the lawyers themselves finally get to interview the jurors. And we get so much information from this moment because the lawyers ask questions based on what they want out of the jurors.

So the prosecution is asking all these different kinds of questions. The first round of wajir is done by a guy named Joshua Steinglass, a very experienced trial lawyer with the Manhattan District Attorney’s Office. And he’s providing all these hypotheticals. I’ll give you one example because I found this one really, really interesting. He provides a hypothetical about a man who wants his wife killed and essentially hires a hitman to do it. And what he asked the jurors is, if that case were before you, would you be able to see that the man who hired the hitman was a part of this crime?

And of course, what he’s really getting at is, can you accept that even though Michael Cohen, Trump’s fixer, made this payment, Trump is the guy who hired him to do it?

That’s right. If there are other people involved, will jurors still be able to see Donald Trump’s hands behind it all?

Fascinating. And what were some of the responses?

People mostly said, yes, we accept that. So that’s how the prosecution did it.

But the defense had a totally different method of voir dire. They were very focused on their client and people’s opinions about their client.

So what kind of questions do we get from them?

So the lawyer, Todd Blanche, is asking people, what do you make of President Trump? What do you think of President Trump?

And what are some of the responses to that?

Well, there’s this incredible exchange with one of the jurors who absolutely refuses to give his opinion of Donald Trump. They go back and forth and back and forth. And the juror keeps insisting you don’t need to know my opinion of him. All you need to know is that I’m going to be fair and impartial, like I said. And Blanch pushes, and the guy pushes back. And the only way the guy budges is he finally kind of confesses almost at the end that, yes, I am a Democrat, and that’s all we get.

And what ends up happening to this potential juror?

Believe it or not, he got dismissed.

[LAUGHS]: I can believe it. And of course, it’s worth saying that this guy and everybody else is being asked that question just feet from Trump himself.

That’s right. And you might think you were going to get a really kind of spicy, like, popcorn emoji-type exchange from that. But because these are now jurors who have said they can be fair and impartial, who, to some extent, want to be on this jury or at least wouldn’t mind being on this jury, they’re being very restrained.

Mostly, what they are emphasizing — much like that guy just described dis — is that they can be fair. They can be impartial. There’s one woman who gives this really remarkable answer.

She says, I thought about this last night. I stayed up all night. I couldn’t sleep, thinking about whether I could be fair. It’s really important to me, and I can.

What ends up happening to that particular juror?

She’s also dismissed. And she’s dismissed without any reason at all. The defense decides it doesn’t like her. It doesn’t want her on the jury. And they have a certain number of chances to just get rid of jurors — no questions asked.

Other jurors are getting dismissed for cause — I’m doing air quotes with my hands — which means that the lawyers have argued they actually revealed themselves through their answers or through old social media posts, which are brought up in the courtroom, to be either non-credible, meaning they’ve said they can be fair and they can’t, or somehow too biased to be on the jury.

Wait, can I just dial into that for a second? Are lawyers researching the jurors in real time going online and saying — I’m making this up — but Jonah Bromwich is a potential juror, and I’m going to go off into my little corner of the courtroom and Google everything you’ve ever said? Is that what’s happening in the room?

Yeah, there’s a whole profession dedicated to that. It’s called jury consultant, and they’re very good at finding information on people in a hurry. And it certainly looked as if they were in play.

Did a social media post end up getting anybody kicked off this jury?

Yes, there were posts from 2016 era internet. You’ll remember that time as a very heated one on the internet, Facebook memes are a big thing. And so there’s all kinds of lock him up type memes and rhetoric. And some of the potential jurors here have used those. And those jurors are dismissed for a reason.

So we have these two types of dismissals, right? We have these peremptory dismissals — no reason at all given. And we have for cause dismissals.

And the process is called jury selection. But you don’t actually get selected for a jury. The thing is to make it through all these obstacles.

You’re left over.

Right. And so when certain jurors are not dismissed, and they’ve made it through all these stages, by the end of the day, we have gone from zero juror seated to seven jurors who will be participating in Donald Trump’s trial.

Got it. And without going through all seven, just give us a little bit of a sketch of who so far is on this jury. What stands out?

Well, not that much stands out. So we’ve got four men. We’ve got three women. One lives on the Upper East Side. One lives in Chelsea. Obviously, they’re from all over Manhattan.

They have these kind of very normal hobbies like spending time with family and friends. They have somewhat anonymous jobs. We’ve got two lawyers. We’ve got someone who’s worked in sales.

So there’s not that much identifying information. And that’s not an accident . One of the things that often happens with jury selection, whether it be for Donald Trump or for anyone else, is the most interesting jurors — the jurors that kind of catch your attention during the process — they get picked off because they are being so interesting that they interest one or the other side in a negative way. And soon they’re excused. So most of the jurors who are actually seated —

Are not memorable.

Are not that memorable, save one particular juror.

OK. All right, I’ll bite. What do I need to know about that one particular juror?

So let me tell you about a prospective juror who we knew as 374, who will now be juror number five. She’s a middle school teacher from Harlem. And she said that she has friends who have really strong opinions about Trump, but she herself does not. And she insisted several times, I am not a political person.

And then she said this thing that made me quite surprised that the prosecution was fine with having her on the jury. She said, quote, “President Trump speaks his mind, and I’d rather that than someone who’s in office who you don’t know what they’re thinking.”

Hmm. So she expressed approval of President Trump.

Yeah, it was mild approval. But the thing is, especially for the defense in this trial, all you need is one juror. One juror can tie up deliberations in knots, and you can end with a hung jury. And this is actually something that I saw firsthand. In 2019, I was the foreperson on a jury.

How you like that?

Yeah. And the trial was really complicated, but I had thought while we were doing the trial, oh, this is going to be a really easy decision. I thought the defendant in that case was guilty. So we get into deliberations, but there’s this one juror who keeps gumming up the works every time we seem to be making progress, getting a conversation started.

This juror proverbially throws up his hands and says, I am not convicting. This man is innocent. And we talked and we talked. And as the foreperson, I was trying to use all my skills to mediate.

But any time we made any progress, this guy would blow it up. And long story short, hung jury — big victory for the defense lawyer. And we come out of the room. And she points at this juror. The guy —

The defense lawyer.

The defense lawyer points at this juror who blew everything up. And she said, I knew it. I knew I had my guy.

OK. I don’t want to read too much into what you said about that one juror. But should I read between the lines to think that if there’s a hung jury, you wonder if it might be that juror?

That’s what everyone in the courtroom is wondering not just about this juror, but about every single person who was selected. Is this the person who swings the case for me? Is this the person who swings the case against me?

These juries are so complex. It’s 12 people who don’t know each other at the start of the trial and, by the end of the trial, have seen each other every morning and are experiencing the same things, but are not allowed to have talked about the case until deliberations start. In that moment when deliberations start —

You’re going to learn a whole lot about each other.

That’s right. There’s this alchemical moment where suddenly, it all matters. Every personality selected matters. And that’s why jury selection is so important. And that’s why these last two days are actually one of the most important parts of this trial.

OK. So by my math, this trial will require five more jurors to get to 12. I know also they’re going to need to be alternates. But from what you’re saying what looked like a really uphill battle to get an impartial jury or a jury that said it could be impartial — and Trump was very doubtful one could be found — has turned out to not be so hard to find.

That’s right. And in fact, we went from thinking, oh, boy, this is going awfully slowly, to the judge himself saying we could be doing opening arguments as soon as Monday morning. And I think that highlights something that’s really fascinating both about this trial and about the jury selection process overall.

One of the things that lawyers have been arguing about is whether or not it’s important to figure out what jurors’ opinions about Donald Trump are. And the prosecution and, I think, the judge have really said, no, that’s not the key issue here. The key issue is not whether or not people have opinions about Donald Trump.

Right. Who doesn’t have an opinion about Donald Trump?

Exactly. They’re going to. Automatically, they’re going to. The question is whether or not they can be fair and impartial. And the seven people we already have seated, and presumably the five people that we’re going to get over the next few days and however many alternates — we expect six — are all going to have answered that question, not I hate Trump; I love Trump, but I can weigh in on the former president’s innocence or guilt, and I can do it as fairly as humanly possible.

Now, Trump is not happy about this. He said after court yesterday, quote, We have a highly conflicted judge, and he’s rushing this trial.” And I think that he is going to see these beats of the system the criminal justice system as it works on him as he is experiencing it as unfair. That is typically how he talks about it and how he views it.

But what he’s getting is what defendants get. This is the system in New York, in the United States. This is its answer to how do you pick a fair jury? Well, you ask people can you be fair? And you put them through this process, and the outcome is 12 people.

And so I think we’re going to see this over and over again in this trial. We’re going to see Trump experience the criminal justice system.

And its routines.

Yeah, openings, witnesses, evidence, closings. He’s going to go through all of it. And I think, at every turn, it makes sense to expect him to say, well, this is not fair. Well, the judge is doing something wrong. Well, the prosecutors are doing something wrong. Well, the jury is doing something wrong.

But at the end of the day, he’s going to be a defendant, and he’s going to sit, mostly silently if his lawyers can make him do that, and watch this process play itself out. So the system is going to try and treat him like any other defendant, even though, of course —

— he’s not. And he is going to fight back like no other defendant would, like no other defendant could. And that tension, him pushing against the criminal justice system as it strives to treat him, as it would anyone else, is going to be a defining quality of this trial.

Well, Jonah, thank you very much. We appreciate it.

Of course. Thanks so much for having me. [MUSIC PLAYING]

PS, have you ever fallen asleep in a trial?

I have not.

[CHUCKLES]:

Here’s what else you need to know today.

It’s clear the Israelis are making a decision to act. We hope they do so in a way that does as little to escalate this as possible and in a way that, as I said —

During a visit to Jerusalem on Wednesday, Britain’s foreign Secretary left little doubt that Israel would retaliate against Iran for last weekend’s aerial attack, despite pressure from the United States and Britain to stand down. The question now is what form that retaliation will take? “The Times” reports that Israel is weighing several options, including a direct strike on Iran, a cyber attack, or targeted assassinations. And —

Look, history judges us for what we do. This is a critical time right now, critical time on the world stage.

In a plan that could threaten his job, Republican House Speaker Mike Johnson will put a series of foreign aid bills up for a vote this weekend. The bills, especially for aid to Ukraine, are strongly opposed by far-right House Republicans, at least two of whom have threatened to try to oust Johnson over the plan.

I can make a selfish decision and do something that’s different, but I’m doing here what I believe to be the right thing. I think providing lethal aid to Ukraine right now is critically important. I really do. I really — [MUSIC PLAYING]

Today’s episode was produced by Rikki Novetsky, Will Reid, Lynsea Garrison, and Rob Zubko. It was edited by Paige Cowett, contains original music by Marion Lozano, Elisheba Ittoop, and Dan Powell, and was engineered by Chris Wood. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsverk of Wonderly Lake.

That’s it for “The Daily.” I’m Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.

• April 19, 2024   •   30:42 The Supreme Court Takes Up Homelessness
• April 18, 2024   •   30:07 The Opening Days of Trump’s First Criminal Trial
• April 17, 2024   •   24:52 Are ‘Forever Chemicals’ a Forever Problem?
• April 16, 2024   •   29:29 A.I.’s Original Sin
• April 15, 2024   •   24:07 Iran’s Unprecedented Attack on Israel
• April 14, 2024   •   46:17 The Sunday Read: ‘What I Saw Working at The National Enquirer During Donald Trump’s Rise’
• April 12, 2024   •   34:23 How One Family Lost $900,000 in a Timeshare Scam
• April 11, 2024   •   28:39 The Staggering Success of Trump’s Trial Delay Tactics
• April 10, 2024   •   22:49 Trump’s Abortion Dilemma
• April 9, 2024   •   30:48 How Tesla Planted the Seeds for Its Own Potential Downfall
• April 8, 2024   •   30:28 The Eclipse Chaser
• April 7, 2024 The Sunday Read: ‘What Deathbed Visions Teach Us About Living’

Hosted by Michael Barbaro

Featuring Jonah E. Bromwich

Produced by Rikki Novetsky ,  Will Reid ,  Lynsea Garrison and Rob Szypko

Edited by Paige Cowett

Original music by Dan Powell ,  Marion Lozano and Elisheba Ittoop

Engineered by Chris Wood

Listen and follow The Daily Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Amazon Music

Political and legal history are being made in a Lower Manhattan courtroom as Donald J. Trump becomes the first former U.S. president to undergo a criminal trial.

Jonah Bromwich, who covers criminal justice in New York, explains what happened during the opening days of the trial, which is tied to Mr. Trump’s role in a hush-money payment to a porn star.

On today’s episode

Jonah E. Bromwich , who covers criminal justice in New York for The New York Times.

Background reading

Here’s a recap of the courtroom proceedings so far.

Mr. Trump’s trial enters its third day with seven jurors chosen.

There are a lot of ways to listen to The Daily. Here’s how.

We aim to make transcripts available the next workday after an episode’s publication. You can find them at the top of the page.

The Daily is made by Rachel Quester, Lynsea Garrison, Clare Toeniskoetter, Paige Cowett, Michael Simon Johnson, Brad Fisher, Chris Wood, Jessica Cheung, Stella Tan, Alexandra Leigh Young, Lisa Chow, Eric Krupke, Marc Georges, Luke Vander Ploeg, M.J. Davis Lin, Dan Powell, Sydney Harper, Mike Benoist, Liz O. Baylen, Asthaa Chaturvedi, Rachelle Bonja, Diana Nguyen, Marion Lozano, Corey Schreppel, Rob Szypko, Elisheba Ittoop, Mooj Zadie, Patricia Willens, Rowan Niemisto, Jody Becker, Rikki Novetsky, John Ketchum, Nina Feldman, Will Reid, Carlos Prieto, Ben Calhoun, Susan Lee, Lexie Diao, Mary Wilson, Alex Stern, Dan Farrell, Sophia Lanman, Shannon Lin, Diane Wong, Devon Taylor, Alyssa Moxley, Summer Thomad, Olivia Natt, Daniel Ramirez and Brendan Klinkenberg.

Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsverk of Wonderly. Special thanks to Sam Dolnick, Paula Szuchman, Lisa Tobin, Larissa Anderson, Julia Simon, Sofia Milan, Mahima Chablani, Elizabeth Davis-Moorer, Jeffrey Miranda, Renan Borelli, Maddy Masiello, Isabella Anderson and Nina Lassam.

Jonah E. Bromwich covers criminal justice in New York, with a focus on the Manhattan district attorney’s office and state criminal courts in Manhattan. More about Jonah E. Bromwich

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Vince McMahon's life after WWE: Kittens, vacations and staying in touch with Trump

As he faces a mountain of legal woes, former WWE leader Vince McMahon is traveling, eating out and keeping in touch with friends and associates — including former President Donald Trump.

McMahon resigned as executive chairman of World Wrestling Entertainment’s parent company almost three months ago after a former employee, Janel Grant, accused him in a bombshell lawsuit of sexual abuse and trafficking. He denied the allegations. McMahon, 78, is also facing a federal criminal investigation , although he hasn’t been charged.

NBC News and CNBC talked to 11 people familiar with McMahon and WWE about how he’s been spending his time — and how the global brand he built over more than four decades is moving on without him. These people, including close personal associates and company insiders, declined to be named, citing ongoing legal cases and the confidential nature of internal corporate communications.

Multiple WWE insiders said he hasn’t had any contact with company leaders and figureheads since he resigned. Mark Shapiro, the operating chief of WWE parent company TKO Group Holdings, said in March that McMahon “doesn’t work for the company, doesn’t come into the office, and he’s not coming back to the company.”

That also means McMahon hasn’t talked to his son-in-law, WWE creative chief and former superstar Paul “Triple H” Levesque, or daughter, Stephanie McMahon-Levesque, regarding company matters, sources said. While she introduced WWE’s WrestleMania event earlier this month, McMahon-Levesque, who worked beside her father for more than 20 years and played roles in storylines, currently has no involvement with the company, according to people familiar with the matter. Levesque and McMahon-Levesque declined to comment through a spokesperson, as did a WWE representative. 

McMahon is nonetheless indelibly linked with the wrestling outfit, which he bought from his father 42 years ago. Still, he seems to have moved on, according to multiple sources. McMahon has kept up his other routines, and it’s as if he’s unfazed by his legal fights, two sources said.For instance, on an afternoon in late March, McMahon returned on a private plane to the United States from the sunny Turks and Caicos Islands -- but he wasn’t alone, according to a person close to him. He had with him seven kittens and a puppy, all of which he brought back to be adopted by his friends, this person added. 

“If anything, he’s enjoying life,” said the person, who added that McMahon had also taken a trip to Italy. 

Jessica Rosenberg, an attorney for McMahon, declined to comment regarding the aspects of the former WWE chief’s life reported in this article. In an emailed statement Tuesday, however, she criticized Grant’s suit: “The lawsuit’s claims are false, defamatory and entirely without merit. We intend to vigorously defend Mr. McMahon and are confident that he will be vindicated.”

Life amid litigation

The details of McMahon’s life after his WWE reign present a stark contrast to Grant’s accusations, which paint a graphic portrait of a violent and controlling man. In the federal lawsuit, filed Jan. 25, Grant’s attorneys said that she was “the victim of physical and emotional abuse, sexual assault and trafficking at WWE,” naming McMahon and former WWE executive John Laurinaitis. Both men have denied the accusations in the suit. The lawsuit also named WWE as a defendant. WWE and its parent company, TKO, have said that they take Grant’s allegations “very seriously.” 

“Vince McMahon raped, trafficked and physically assaulted Janel Grant as part of his decades-long normalization of treating women within the WWE as objects. He might have thought that Janel would just walk away, but that wishful thinking couldn’t be further from the case,” Ann Callis, an attorney for Grant, said in a statement Wednesday. “Every day we are focused on adding to our mountain of evidence, speaking with other victims, hiring renowned experts on sex trafficking/coercive control and preparing to vociferously litigate this case.”

Federal investigators seized a phone from McMahon and have been trying to determine whether federal law was broken in the conduct surrounding Grant’s allegations, NBC News reported in February . WWE had disclosed last summer that investigators served McMahon with a federal grand jury subpoena and executed a search warrant in July.McMahon is cooperating with authorities, according to one of the people close to him. McMahon believes officials won’t bring any charges against him and that Grant’s civil case will be settled out of court, said a person close to the former wrestling executive.

Nicholas Biase, a spokesperson for the U.S. Attorney’s Office for the Southern District of New York, declined to comment.

A spokesperson for Grant’s attorneys said that there have been absolutely no settlement talks with McMahon.

While his legal battles persist, McMahon is often ferried by a private driver from his posh Connecticut home to Manhattan, according to one of the sources close to him. There, he eats with friends at restaurants such as the old-school Italian spot Il Tinello East on 46th Street, sees his longtime barber for biweekly haircuts and works with his personal trainer multiple times a week, the source said.  Two other sources, however, say McMahon has otherwise been “quite guarded” and often on the phone with his lawyers to map out plans since Grant’s lawsuit was made public.

Staying in touch

McMahon has also talked to Trump, according to two of the people close to the wrestling impresario. The two billionaires have been in touch regularly, according to a person close to McMahon, although it isn’t clear what they’ve discussed.

Trump and the McMahon family go way back: The former president hosted two WrestleMania events in Atlantic City in the late 1980s, engaged in a wrestling “feud” with McMahon in 2007 and is a member of the WWE Hall of Fame. Linda McMahon, McMahon’s wife, served as the Small Business Administration’s head in Trump’s Cabinet, led a pro-Trump super PAC and is now on the board of the publicly traded Trump Media and Technology Group.

In 2022, The Wall Street Journal reported that McMahon paid $5 million in previously unrecorded expenses to the since-dissolved Donald J. Trump Foundation during two of the years Trump appeared on WWE programming.

Trump, who’s running for a second term as president, has also been accused of sexual assault and is facing his own costly pile of civil and criminal legal troubles, including four separate indictments. Trump has denied wrongdoing in his various cases, pleading not guilty in each criminal proceeding, including a New York trial that started Monday. Another person close to McMahon said that the two men don’t discuss their legal problems and that Trump doesn’t provide legal advice.

Hours after the publication of this story, a spokesperson for McMahon pushed back.

“Mr. McMahon has not been ‘staying in touch’ or ‘been in touch regularly’ with former President Trump. He has spoken with Mr. Trump once in the past several years and that was for about a minute or so after Mr. McMahon’s back surgery. Other than that, there have been no communications between the two,” the spokesperson said.

A representative for Trump declined to comment.

Since he resigned, McMahon has been in touch with Dwayne “The Rock” Johnson and John Cena, sources said. Johnson and Cena, both Hollywood superstars, are two of WWE’s biggest success stories.

Publicly, Johnson has thanked TKO and WWE executives regarding his addition to the TKO board earlier this year. In February, Cena told the radio host Howard Stern that “the whole thing is super unfortunate and it sucks,” while noting that he loves McMahon and has a “great relationship” with him. “But in the same breath,” he added at the time, “I’m also a big advocate of accountability.”

Cena and Johnson are both represented by the William Morris Endeavor agency, which is part of Endeavor Group — the majority owner of TKO.A spokesperson for Johnson declined to comment. A representative for Cena didn’t respond to requests for comment. 

WWE in transition

This isn’t the first time WWE has had to contend with controversy stemming from its former longtime leader. McMahon was acquitted of federal criminal charges in the early 1990s related to the steroid scandal that engulfed the wrestling world at the time. 

In 2022, he briefly stepped down as WWE’s leader after the Journal reported that he paid millions of dollars to multiple women to cover up his alleged extramarital affairs. The Journal also reported that other women had come forward with sexual misconduct allegations . WWE amended its financial reports to reflect the payments. McMahon denied all wrongdoing. 

His daughter helped take over leadership of the company in the interim, but McMahon-Levesque resigned when her father, who owned a controlling stake in WWE, returned in early 2023 . McMahon then engineered a deal to merge the company with Endeavor Group’s UFC to form TKO. Longtime Hollywood super agent Ari Emanuel is the CEO of both Endeavor and TKO. 

That deal, announced in April 2023 , made McMahon the executive chairman of the new company, and he gave up majority control of WWE. At the time, he told CNBC he wouldn’t be “in the weeds” with creative decisions but he would weigh in on big decisions. That marked a big shift for McMahon. His family has been in the business dating back to the early 20th century. After buying the company from his father, who was known as “Vince Sr.,” the younger McMahon then employed flamboyant superstars such as Hulk Hogan and the Rock, staging glitzy pay-per-view events like WrestleMania, to build it into an international sensation. And while WWE is still defined in part by the family, McMahon’s daughter and son-in-law are publicly attempting to push the brand into the future.  

At WrestleMania 40, held earlier this month in Philadelphia, McMahon-Levesque surprised the crowd with an appearance and hailed her husband’s leadership. “Every Wrestlemania is special for its own reason, but I think WrestleMania 40 might be the one I’m most proud of, because this is the first WrestleMania of the Paul Levesque era,” she said . (Linda McMahon joined her daughter backstage, according to an Instagram photo posted by wrestling star Charlotte Flair.) Levesque himself proclaimed a “new era” for WWE. 

It was a significant moment for the brand, coming during the first WrestleMania since the Grant lawsuit -- and it’s the first one under TKO’s management. Still, some rank-and-file WWE employees have griped that the company hasn’t done more to address the situation, according to an insider. After McMahon quit, Shapiro told a global town hall for both TKO and Endeavor employees “in no uncertain terms” that the former wrestling boss wouldn’t return, according to another insider. Shapiro also assured employees that Levesque and WWE President Nick Khan have his support, this person said. 

Otherwise, WWE is more relaxed since McMahon resigned in January, sources said. When McMahon was still running things, he would come in late in the afternoon and often stay until around midnight or beyond, two current employees said. (His office at WWE headquarters in Stamford, Connecticut, is unoccupied but otherwise intact, according to an executive, who called it “spooky.”) He had a reputation for being capricious and quick to fire employees, which generated fear and created a chilling effect, according to sources. 

Now there’s more levity and freedom to make a mistake or suggest an idea, some employees said.

The current leadership operates more conventionally, giving underperforming employees a standard progress report and opportunities to improve before taking action, they added. 

Some McMahon loyalists remain, but one employee said: “WWE is actually a really great place to work, and Vince distracted from that. It’s been much better since he left.” Another said: “People feel like they’re on steadier ground.”The company, meanwhile, is charting its post-McMahon course with the help of lucrative media rights deals. In September, WWE signed a $1.4 billion deal with NBC News’ parent company, NBCUniversal, for domestic rights to “Friday Night SmackDown.” In January, it inked a 10-year, $5 billion pact with Netflix to move its flagship “Raw” show and other programs to the streaming giant next year. WWE announced both agreements after it became part of TKO and McMahon ceded much of his official control over the brand.

There’s yet another sign suggesting that McMahon’s distance from WWE is more than temporary: He has sold hundreds of millions of dollars’ worth of shares in TKO since November, a sizable chunk of those sales coming after he resigned in January. That’s different from when he briefly stepped down in 2022.  

“This time, it’s like, OK, now, it’s over -over,” one of the insiders said.

A version of this story was published on CNBC.com .

Chloe Melas is an entertainment correspondent for NBC News. 

Alex Sherman covers media for CNBC.