area 451 cruise control

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Cruise control options for the 451. Tested and reviewed

Started by SmartieParts , June 3, 2008

8 posts in this topic

 ·  #1

Posted June 3, 2008 · Report post

Hello folks.

There have been rumors, innuendo, falsehoods, truths, speculations, stories, tales and guesses relating to cruise control options for the 451.

I believe I am the only person on Earth at this moment to have installed, tested, reviewed and compared the two front runners.

In this corner, wearing the plain brown box and bubble wrap, we have the defending champion, weighing in at 387 grams, coming all the way from Düsseldorf Germany, M D C ! And in this corner, wearing the black box with red and white trim, we have the challenger, weighing in at a 299 grams, representing the United States of America.... AAAarea 451 Parts!

I've written elsewhere about the cosmetic differences, the installation method differences, the packaging and "professionalism" differences, etc. But when it comes down to it... its how it drives, right? I thought both would be identical and the fight would be on the other stuff. Boy was I wrong!

Let's get a bit technical. Most motor control systems work on a similar principle... its something called a PID loop. P, I and D are variables in a complex mathematical equation that act together to determine output that will achieve a particular goal. In the case of a cruise control, the goal is smooth and steady accelerator pedal control to maintain a speed. That math makes it possible for a "dumb" computer to simulate your foot without the benefits of things like eyes to see the road ahead, etc. Its a stimulus/response thing really... the speed drops, the cruise responds by pressing the pedal harder. The speed goes up, it lifts off the pedal a bit. But exactly how it does that is rather complicated.

The "I" of the PID loop does a lot of the magic, but is also susceptible to causing problems. Especially with "overshoot"

OVERSHOOT - a lesson and comparison

Owners of the MDC on the 450 may have noticed that if you're going up a big long hill say at 100kph, when you finally get over that hill it will accelerate up to say 120kph and you're left saying, "whoa Nelly! WTF!?" and if you're like me you respond by shutting the cruise off before it gets you a ticket. It happens rarely, but most people with one will know what I'm saying. This is caused by the "I" part of the equation and its called "overshoot". What happens is your car is too weak to maintain the speed exactly so you're going 99 or 98 for a long period of time while its set at 100. Of course, this is the "fault" of your car, not the cruise but this "error" builds and builds over time. When you finally crest the hill (remove the car's inability) the "virtual" gas pedal is planted to the floor and it takes quite some time for it to "catch up". Of course, a human will just recognize continued power is no longer needed and lift the foot off the gas but the computer isn't capable of that kind of reasoning. Actually, all cruise controls suffer from overshoot in theory. There's no way around it. But most cars don't have trouble getting up the hill in the first place so you may never notice it. Incidentally, if you leave it alone it will eventually settle out and you'll be back to 100 but it can take awhile.

So while that can't really be helped, it can be "tuned". Would the Area 451 unit be better? Worse? the same? I didn't even have a guess but I was certain the MDC for the 451 would be the same or better than the MDC for the 450.

The overshoot on the 450 would only really happen at higher speeds like 100+ and only on long steep hills. For the 451, it happens a lot more frequently, at lower speeds, and at less severe hills. Is this a difference in the cruise? or is it a difference in the car? I don't know. I suspect perhaps they used the same formula for the 450 as they do now for the 451 and its not quite working.

So how bad is it? Its really not that bad, but it depends how sensitive you are and what you expect out of it. On a flat road, if you set it to 80 it Will hold 80 all day without a blink of an eye. You'll never see 79 and you'll never see 81. But go up a hill and it might drop to 70 and once you crest the hill it might go to 85. That variance is more pronounced at higher speeds than at lower ones, with some exceptions due to transmission shifting (see later).

Is the Area 451 Parts version any better? Yes, without a doubt it is. it handles smaller hills and lower speeds with near zero variance. So again, going 80 on a flat road you'll see no variance. Hit a hill and you might drop to around 77 or 78 but you'll not see any overshoot on the way back up. It does very well. At higher speeds again there is some, but its less than that of the MDC. The worst I saw was on this run: Going on "The Connector" (for those familiar with the Kelowna area) with it set to 110, the car started to drop speed on a steep hill and fell to about 100 before the transmission shifted gears to begin accelerating again. By the time the hill was crested, the cruise continued to accelerate briefly up to 114 and then the car shifted back to 5th and the speed quickly dropped to 110 where it was maintained. So not bad, but it was there.

SMOOTH - how was it for you?

Ok, overshoot happens because the car can't keep up and the cruise doesn't know how to react. But what about when you are in speeds and terrain that the car is capable of keeping up? How smooth is smooth? Both units are very good in this regard. The results were interesting. With PID theory, it should be smoother as speeds go up, at least to the point that the car can't continue. However, what I observed was that the MDC unit was considerably smoother at 25 - 30kph tests than the Area 451 version but that reversed by 50kph and the Area 451 version was better at locking on a specific speed on all (reasonable) terrains in the 50 to 90kph range. Beyond 90 you get back into the car's ability to maintain speed so its not really fair comparing the two if hills are involved, but for flatter areas both performed very well at higher speeds. By "smooth" I mean you don't feel a surging as the car is pulsing the pedal trying to maintain speed. It is actually not possible in a PID loop system for the pedal to remain "steady" but the idea is to make the ups and downs so small that you don't feel them and it appears steady.

SHIFT ENGAGEMENTS - what is the effect on the transmission

Some of you might be learning something here... others may know all this already. But I'm going to spell it out. An "automatic" transmission is not nearly as simple - or as smart - as people tend to think. Sure, it shifts for you... but you tell it when, even if you aren't aware of it. How you do that it through the gas pedal. How far you press it, how fast you press it, and how quickly (rate of change) you press it will all provide cues to the transmission to the gear you wish to be in. For example, you're going up a steep hill and the car starts to slow you press the pedal down further, right? That gives a signal to the tranny that you want to go faster than its capable of going at the moment, so it down shifts and you begin to accelerate. Since the cruise control simulates your right foot, the speed at which it reacts to stimuli will affect the reaction by the transmission to what the cruise is telling it. Ok, cut the crap - which one does better? You know, its a tough call. At higher speeds the Area 451 Parts model seems to adjust the speed a bit slower so when you hit a steep hill and the speed starts to drop, it takes a bit longer to change gears (drop to 4th) and waits longer before it shifts back up (to 5th) after you've crested the hills (remember, the cruise doesn't directly say when to shift, it just gives "hints" to the transmission by how far it presses the pedal) so it results in a smoother ride but sometimes in the "wrong" gear. The MDC unit causes the gears to switch more often which helps keep the speed steady, but the constant shifting gets a bit annoying. Most people in manual control would keep it in 4th until the hill is finished and the car can comfortably handle 5th gear again.

Which brings me to a huge point and difference between the two:

The MDC for the 451 will work ONLY in automatic mode. This is different than the version for the 450 which would work fine in both modes. The Area 451 Parts version does work perfectly fine in both modes. The shifting discussion is moot for the 451 if you manually control the gears. In manual mode with the Area 451 Parts cruise, you can avoid overshoot and choppy drive at high speeds almost entirely by just manually controlling the shifting rather than relying on the automatic transmission. I hesitated from even putting a transmission comparison in this because its NOT the cruise controlling the shifting. So you'll get the same choppy or sluggish ride without a cruise if you were to hold our foot steady (or not) going up the hill. The difference is a human will always react quicker and better to hills than a computer can. At least one using PID loop technology (fuzzy logic would be faster and more adaptable, but increases the chances you crash into a pole or your car rises up and overthrows the human race).

So, which is better overall? From what I've seen and tested there's no question. The new Area 451 Parts cruise control is simply a better product all round with one catch... its not yet available.

A disclaimer of bias. People have suggested that SmartieParts and the "new" company (Area 451 Parts) are working together. That's not technically true, but its not false either. The OWNER of SmartieParts (me) is involved in the Area 451 project... the companies are separate. So bias, yeah - you bet. But those that know me know that I'm a straight shooter and tell it like it is. The reason for working on the Area 451 project was to ensure steady supply of a popular product, not to necessarily make a better one. It just so happens it achieves both goals. For years I've had trouble keeping a supply of MDC cruise controls in stock, to the point that some people have waited in excess of 3.5 months at certain times. This restrictive supply keeps prices high and availability (and my sales) low. I don't think its deliberate - or even their fault - but it is the way it is. Hopefully we can change that.

So if you have a 451 and want a cruise control now, I have a few that I can sell NOW. If you can wait until August, then there will be a 2nd option. If you're in between... I suggest you contact me sooner rather than later because once these 2 or 3 MDC units I have here right now are sold... well, we're looking at 4-6 weeks or more before stock arrives.

Any questions at all... anything I missed, or anything you're curious about... as long as its about the cruise (and not trade secrets or sensitive business issues) I will be more than happy to provide my candid assessment of either or both products.

If anyone wishes to test drive either and see for themselves, I'm in the Kelowna area and I'll be happy to take you for a spin!

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 ·  #2

thats exciting news

 ·  #3

Sweeet! How close is the one you tested to the production version (Area 451)?

 ·  #4

Very interesting discussion.

 ·  #5

If you can wait until August, then there will be a 2nd option.

 ·  #6

The original target date for the new cruise was July 1. It is, in my estimately, highly unlikely that target will be achieved. It was a number drawn from a hat so the thought that its going to be even close is kind of fortunate.But I really don't have an ETA for people that's anything more than an insider's guess. - Steven

 ·  #7

Steven, Thank you so much for an incredible explanation. This should also help with people's expectations of the cruise control so that they can know EXACTLY what to expect and what is "normal" once they get it installed. I suspect that many people might panic if they suddenly experienced an 'overshoot' and they had never experienced it before. If they are like me, they would immediately feel that it must have been something they did WRONG during their installation. Now, everybody who reads this should be able to understand that it's most likely due to the car's lesser power than previous cars they may have experienced with cruise control. I'm wondering if the company might want to make sure they include such an explanation in the packaging information, or with the online instructions I've read that will be available, or at least in a FAQ section. I continue to be a huge supporter of this ambition and admire the way all the principals have been so 'straight' with us perspective buyers. Keep up the good work.Ron

 ·  #8

Thanks Ron!I agree overshoot should be discussed in their materials in one form or another. Pretending it doesn't exist is a mistake I think. Like I say, it technically is inherint in any automotive cruise control in any car in use today, but its probably so small you never notice it. You avoid it by simply pressing the pedal to make the car keep up... but if the car won't keep up, then...Incidentally, it can be tuned to lessen overshoot by adjusting "P" (in the P I D equation), but then you end up with pulsing and that's annoying. Striking the balance is why so many test runs were required in development. If you read up on PID process control loops, you'll find the general concensus is that the "ideal" tuned curve always has a little overshoot in favor of oscillations.So... 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 103 102 101 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100....instead of95 96 97 98 99 100 99 100 99 100 99 100 99 100 99 100 99 100 100 100 100 100 100 100...if that makes any sense. And again, that's only when recovering from an "event" such as a hill where the car (not the cruise) was unable to hold the set speed. - Steven

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Area 451 cruise control MSRP announced

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If we could only find the wiring diagram for the car, we could buy one of the dashmount units from JC Whitney for $121.00 and install it  

Have a pic?  

Thanks for the find, I want one but am not sure I would pay that price, time will tell.  

Hmm, I am at work so I can't really click around too much for this - but has anyone seen any pics of the install? I'd like to hope it comes with a black stalk to match the 451 interior... that would be the only thing keeping me from doing it.  

anyone know who will be selling it retail?  

too rich for my blood... I'm sure its a great product and would LOVE to have it... but, I'd have to have it professionally installed... and then I'm looking at somewhere around $700 or so.... just can't do it... I'll wait for factory cruise and then sell my used Cabrio.  

The installation looks very simple to me - there is one hole to drill in the stalk, and the rest is just plug and play. I'm sure I would be able to do it - and I'm a 70-year-old female cripple! - sheureka  

...about what I figured. btw, and fwiw, I am listening to "Little Martha" by Duane Allman, which I haven't heard for about 30 years. I think it is the best song in the world. Leo Kottke agrees with me. Best Regards, e .::.  

If someone gets this cc please post what wires hook where  

Just go to Area 451 Parts Ltd. Cruise control for the 2008 smart fortwo , click on the little dot to get in, and then click on the very top eyeball (I know, pretty weird). You can see all of the installation instructions and features there. - sheureka  

Other than drilling a hole in the column, it looks like plug and play simple installation to me. I will install myself  

the 451 site is very cool. and looks very easy to do. i will order one so i can put it on my car when i get it. they say it will match the new interior.  

Hi everyone. I'm the guy that designed this new cruise control that Area 451 Parts is supplying. Just a couple responses to some of the comments here: The price is competitive if you compare to the only other option "available". There is no factory option, but if there were it would likely cost more than this. Someone mentioned an off-the shelf generic "option". If it were that simple, we woud have done that! A wiring diagram won't help you install one of those... the smart isn't a traditional car and can't use a traditional cruise control. The install really is within a typical person's abilities. I'm not sure why a few of you are jumping to the conclusion that you have to pay a pro. You can if you want, but it is recommended you install ANY aftermarket part yourself whenever possible. Follow the instructions carefully and you'll find this to be one of the easiest mods you'll do to your car. I'll be happy to answer any questions, but for efficiency sake its best if you ask them over on the support site so I don't miss them. Craig  

Cruise451 said: Hi everyone. I'm the guy that designed this new cruise control that Area 451 Parts is supplying. Someone mentioned an off-the shelf generic "option". If it were that simple, we woud have done that! Craig Click to expand...

Do you have any pics of the final install?  

Toyota has paid off its R/D department many times over and can afford to sell their product cheaper. This company has come in with little capitol and as a third party (with no help from Benz). I cannot imagine how much they have invested in the product. If you wait long enough, the company may break even and then can afford to lower the price. The market is still relatively small and in any small market, the price needs to offset the lack in demand.  

letsgoskatepool said: Toyota has paid off its R/D department many times over and can afford to sell their product cheaper. This company has come in with little capitol and as a third party (with no help from Benz). I cannot imagine how much they have invested in the product. If you wait long enough, the company may break even and then can afford to lower the price. The market is still relatively small and in any small market, the price needs to offset the lack in demand. Click to expand...

Sheesh people, give the 451parts guys a break. Think about the product design work, software development and debugging, testing, fault tree analysis, etc. that went into this. All of this designed to fit within the existing wiper stalk. And designed to be installed by a do-it-yourselfer. I'd like to see any of you come up with that and make it profitable at a $480 price point. Some of you think nothing about plunking down $250-$500+ for speakers and a couple hundred for things that don't even have moving parts (e.g., $200 for pedal covers, $100 for an air scoop). But it's like a capital crime was committed if someone offers an add-on cruise control designed specifically for the smart with an MSRP of $480.  

• For every person who might consider buying the cruise control, there are a thousand others who will never even find out it exists. These are the people who buy a car, never change anything about it, and have the dealer do the oil changes because they think that having Jiffy Lube or a local garage do it will "void the warranty."
• The Area 451 team is assuming a financial risk. Any time that smart believes there to be enough buyers to make it worthwhile, they could add a cruise control option, which effectively puts Area 451 out of the cruise control business. If they have not recouped their investment by then, they never will.
• Area 451 is assuming a legal risk. What happens if a smart owner involved in an accident says "my Area 451 cruise control would not deactivate and that's why I ran over that pedestrian"? Whether true or not, the Area 451 team may be looking at an expensive legal battle. Unlike $700 plastic stick-on skins, carbon fiber emblems, and chrome, dual-tipped exhausts, a cruise control failure could lead to to a serious safety issue.

I too thank you for your efforts and providing a product that many desire. We all want things in life to be cheaper than they are but that is not the case anymore. You never have to defend a business decision like price, it's a business, if we do not want to pay that price we can do without (I will find a way to buy one). Do yourself and 451 a favor and stay positive, the sales will come and the negative people will move on to another subject soon enough... What no Yellow?  

Thanks everyone! I want to apologize too... I went to bed, woke up, and felt silly about defending the product I designed. There were lots of positive comments and only really two negative ones, but I chose to focus on the negative. I suppose I took it personally, and I really shouldn't have. I REALLY shouldn't be worried about it - I got paid to design it so there's really no risk to me if nobody buys it - but like all my projects, it was my "baby" and I want to see it do well. I appreciate the comment above about "unfortunately" taking down the R&D site. I totally see where you're coming from and that very well may have been a bad decision in some ways. That mostly happened to avoid confusion between my role in the project (designing) and the actual company's presence on the web. That information wasn't lost, it just isn't out on the web. I'm thinking I wonder if I can find a way to roll it all up into an archives/history/R&D section of the new site just so it is there to see. Hmm... completely different platform so I'm not sure how easy that would be. Anyway, thanks again for the support! Nobody's going to get rich off a cruise control but a couple of people could lose their shirts so I hope enough people want the original thing rather than waiting for the first knock off! Craig  

I recently drove my smart on a 900 mile roundtrip from Sacramento to L.A. After the first 100 miles, I would have gladly paid MSRP and more for that cruise control. I, too, have tracked the long development process for your product and admire your efforts. I'm glad you folks stuck with it. Hopefully, those needing your product will make your investment in time and effort worthwhile.  

Cruise451 said: As with ANY product, you should compare it to alternatives (meaning other similar products you can actually use ). At the moment, your only alternatives are the $520+ one from Germany that I can comfortably say is inferior, or not having one and paying zero dollars for it. Craig Click to expand...

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