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Journey Soundtrack (2012)

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Journey (Original Video Game Soundtrack)

April 10, 2012 18 Songs, 59 minutes ℗ 2012 Sony Interactive Entertainment LLC, under exclusive license to Sony Music Entertainment

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10 Years On, The Journey Soundtrack Is ‘Re-Imagined’ By Its Original Composer

Today marks 10 years since Journey ‘s release. How time flies, right? To celebrate the 10th anniversary of the game, Austin Wintory, the original composer of the Journey  soundtrack, decided to drop a “total reimagining of the score”, working with the London Symphony Orchestra and cellist Tina Guo (who also worked on the original soundtrack).

In 2012 @thatgamecompany + @SonySantaMonica changed my life forever. The last decade has been nonstop gratitude for everything JOURNEY did for me. To celebrate 10 years here is a total reimagining of the score feat @londonsymphony / @Tinaguo . I hope you enjoy; it’s been a dream💞 pic.twitter.com/P5ZrWGXYRi — Austin Wintory (@awintory) March 13, 2022

Journey  feels like one of those ‘once-in-a-lifetime’ games. Released in 2012 and developed by Thatgamecompany ,  Journey  was called ‘a game about nothing’, and that would be about right. There’s no clear-cut story, no dialogue, none of that. You simply wake up in a desert, and must go on. The game was also ‘multiplayer’, and I say that in quotes because the only kind of multiplayer was that you would surprisingly happen upon people also playing the game, honking at them, and then venturing through the land together. For a game with no straight forward story and no words, it touched a lot of hearts, and it did so not only through its simplicity, but its incredible score.

Oh my god, the music of  Journey.

The soundtrack was composed by Wintory, who had previously worked on the soundtrack for Thatgamecompany’s  Flow.  Wintory’s work on  Journey  also saw him working closely with the game’s sound designer Steve Johnson in order to make the soundtrack feel directly linked to gameplay, which proved to be a game-changer. The game won multiple awards for its soundtrack, including at the BAFTA Game Awards, an Interactive Achievement Award at the Academy of Interactive Arts & Sciences, and at the Game Audio Network Guild Awards. It was also the first ever game to be nominated for a Grammy. So yeah, you could say the music for  Journey  is pretty fucking incredible.

The reimagining has also shone a light on just how simplistic the original score is, with Wintory replying later in the Twitter post about the original composition.

The original score is not actually orchestral! It’s all soloists (5 of them, mostly cello though) and lots of synth pads. As you reach the end game, I add in a small string ensemble. The idea was to put those notes through a grandly symphonic filter, to see how it sounds! — Austin Wintory (@awintory) March 13, 2022

I may be a big dummy, but I had no idea the original score wasn’t orchestral. It felt so  full.  And now I’m listening to the new version, and I’m crying. Thanks a lot, Austin Wintory, I’m crying.

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‘Journey’ turns 10: Austin Wintory has found a way for you to experience it for the first time, all over again

10 years later, gaming’s only Grammy-nominated soundtrack gets reimagined, reorchestrated and revived, ready for another Journey

Rock The Spacebar is a twice-monthly column investigating the great music that underpins your favourite games. This week, Dom Peppiatt talks to composer Austin Wintory about why – after 10 years of Journey – the composer is ‘visiting with an old friend’ and giving us all the chance to reconnect with a watermark moment in the gaming artform.

V ery shortly after Journey was released, there was a story that did the rounds at Sony and thatgamecompany – publisher and developer of Journey , respectively. Someone that worked in the games industry had emailed the team, telling the companies that he had lost his father a year or so before Journey had launched. The man had rejected a call from his father in order to get some work done one night, and that same night his father passed away.

• READ MORE: Sea Power, ‘Disco Elysium’, and the importance of being miserable

Over the course of the next year, the man couldn’t shake the guilt of that night and fell into a depressive spiral. The grieving process stalled. Whilst playing Journey – a wordless adventure game where you may, or may not, meet other players as you are drawn inexorably to a distant mountain – the man encountered one single other player. A player that would change his life.

“So he was in that place emotionally, and he played the game, and he managed to stick with one player the whole time,” the game’s composer, Austin Wintory, tells me in an interview on the game’s 10th anniversary. “For him, the emotional momentum just kept gaining and gaining, and then he made it to the finale and in the excitement of it all… he lost track of this other player, this guide and companion.”

The finale – paired with a Wintory piece called Apotheosis – is an evocative climax that sees the player ascend to the mountaintop after a laborious trek through myriad trials, undulating between hills and valleys before settling at this one, singular destination you’ve been able to see from the very beginning of the game. Cellos, violas, harps and choral elements dance with each other. Wintory weaves a slower version of Journey ’s main theme – something you’ve heard multiple times in the game at this point – alongside a more urgent call to action, thrumming you onwards, upwards. It’s catharsis in your hands as you clutch your PlayStation pad.

“As he landed at the mouth of the summit,” Wintory continues, “the other player was standing there. Waiting. And then they go through the final act together. The guy that wrote in to us says, in that moment, he felt this weight being lifted off his shoulders – that the thing that had bothered him was that he had never been able to say goodbye, and in playing this game had inadvertently, subconsciously, projected that onto this other player. He came out of this experience feeling different. That experience – something that real and the personal – is orders of magnitude beyond anything any of us could have hoped for when making Journey .”

Journey is a game about life, death, and rebirth. Named after (and explicitly following) the hero’s journey theory of narrative per Joseph Campbell, the game is a not-so-subtle observation on human life and the connections we allow in, dance around, and disconnect from. It is a mute game that has spoken to thousands of people around the world – if not millions, at this point. The game’s testers cried when they were debugging it in development. And it was the first game – ever – to have its music nominated for a Grammy . Journey ’s significance comes in personal, global, industrial flavours. But you’d never know that, talking to Wintory – perhaps one of the most humble artists I’ve ever had the pleasure of chatting to.

“I saw an interview with Jeff Bridges a couple of years ago, a career retrospective,” reflects Wintory. “The interviewer asked him how he feels that – despite winning an Oscar, and being associated with so many iconic movies – he will forever be The Dude from The Big Lebowski . ‘What an honour,’ he goes. ‘The idea that I might be outlived by The Dude, and that some day when I’m gone The Dude will carry me forward because that role found its place.’”

You know what they say:  The Dude Abides . It’s telling that this interview sticks with Wintory – he’s had the pleasure of taking Journey around the world, even as he’s been working on new music, and there’s no trace of bitterness or sense that Journey overshadows his legacy in a negative way. No, he embraces it. He calls it a game that has shaped his career, that was instrumental in making him one of the most recognisable names in games. “It’s an old friend that you never get tired of visiting with,” he notes at one point.

A few times during our chat, the composer remarked about how Journey nearly didn’t make it, that there were a multitude of near-misses that could have kept the game from finding a wider audience. It took two years longer to make than Sony wanted, the development team struggled paring down ideas to fit the scope of the project, and there was always a question about funding hanging over the studio.

But it did happen. Journey did launch. And to critical and commercial success. It launched Wintory’s career into the stratosphere, and thatgamecompany became the darling of the art game world. Ask anyone if they’ve played Journey and they’ll rave about their wordless connections with other players, the way unspoken relationships lived and died in the sand and snow, and the incredible music that held their hands through every step of this literal and metaphorical expedition into the heart of the human experience.

Wintory’s score – which was explicitly designed to be a “profoundly cathartic and emotional experience,” per creative director Jenova Chen – is built around a few essential pillars that players unassumingly control. You are represented by the cello, a main part of the arrangement used to dial in on you in moments of agency and introspection. Orchestral swells and strings are used to suggest there’s something bigger out there, and often accompany glimpses of that eternal, imposing peak you’re magnetically drawn to. Harps and violas represent other players you may meet on your journey – elements of the score you can miss entirely if you play offline, or at the wrong time of day, or if you’re just unlucky.

“The thing I love above all about writing music for games is making music where the player feels like a real meaningful co-author of the experience,” says Wintory. “And that they feel like they are shaping what they hear, that they aren’t just being subjected to it in the way they are in music, or films, or even performances: they are actively helping figure out how everything unfurls for them. It’s an art form that has no real equivalent, anywhere else.”

It might seem odd, then, that for the game’s 10th anniversary, Wintory has “re-orchestrated” and “re-imagined” the Journey score with Traveler. Unlike its decade-old counterpart, Traveler is not paired with an interactive experience, and you – as a player or listener – cannot control the elements you can hear. Wintory, the London Symphony Orchestra, the London Voice choir, cellist Tina Guo and a host of guest musicians have revisited Journey to walk in its footsteps again. This time, though, you’re not controlling where they’re going.

So why go back? “Ultimately, I wanted to come back to this soundtrack because I want to make something new enough that it sounds like you’re listening to it for the first time,” Wintory says. “And the motivation for that is because one of the recurring messages I have gotten over the past decade is from people saying Journey is their favourite game of all time, and that they wish they could go back and experience it for the first time and experience it again as if they’ve never played it.

“I have no ability to neuralyze people, Men In Black -style, and give them that experience. But if I go and I take the score and I reimagine it as this grand symphonic piece… may be able to approximate that for them”

Wintory is onto something. Whilst writing our chat up, I was listening to Traveler and it tickles something in your cortex; evoking curious first steps on sandy dunes, howling winds in ancient chasms, life-affirming flits on mountain summits.

“You’ve never heard Journey this way – this version, this precise succession of notes, played this way. Maybe it’ll sneak into your head that you’ve experienced it for the first time. That’s my fantasy.”

Journey is life-changing. For thousands of people around the world, for a man struggling with his grief, and for Wintory himself. Artform-defining, career-defining, and affirming all at once, it’s the sort of project you don’t get to see come around very often.

It’s clear from the way Wintory speaks about the game that Journey has left as much an indelible imprint on him as it has on anyone that’s put down the pad after reaching the mountaintop and sat with their thoughts for seconds, minutes, hours afterwards.

Coming back to it, after 10 years, feels right. Inevitable. After all, Journey is a game about life, death, and rebirth. And, per Joseph Campbell, going back around for another go is all part of the journey.

‘Traveler: A Journey Symphony’ is available now on Bandcamp and streaming services. iam8bit is repressing the Journey soundtrack on 180-gram audiophile black vinyl, and pre-orders are now live . Journey is currently on sale for 50 per cent off on both Steam and the Epic Games Store.

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Why Journey’s ending was so hard to score

Composing Journey’s soundtrack was a Journey itself

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Journey is such a seamless, timeless game, and it feels as though it was delivered fully formed by some ancient video game god. Of course, that is not the case. The path to developing the game was an arduous one, with an especially interesting quirk: the music was composed right alongside the development of the game. It even directly influenced its design.

Composer Austin Wintory sat down with us for an interview to explain how this creative process gave us Journey ’s memorable score. While the game’s first song was practically written the day Wintory was asked to join the project, the same would not be the case for the game’s last song, “Apotheosis.” Nothing would be harder for both the team and Wintory than nailing the end of this harrowing journey.

If you enjoy this video game composer interview, be sure to check out other videos on The Sims composer Jerry Martin and Final Fantasy 7 composer Nobuo Uematsu .

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thatgamecompany

life’s companions

Experience the wonder in this anonymous adventure where you travel on a life’s passage, with the chance to connect with companions along the way.

a mysterious world

Alone and surrounded by miles of burning, sprawling desert, you soon discover the looming mountaintop is your goal. The passage will not be easy but this experience of a lifetime will help you discover who you are, what this place is, as you arrive at your purpose.

beautiful art and music

Soar above ruins and glide across sands as you explore the secrets of a forgotten civilization.  Featuring stunning visuals, haunting music, and unique online gameplay, Journey delivers an experience like no other.

The release of Journey attracted over 100+ industry awards and media accolades, with some naming the game as their ‘Game of The Year’ in 2012.

"A glorious, thoughtful, moving masterpiece"

- entertainment weekly, "mysterious and beautiful", "an incredible, emotional game", "one of the most amazing game experiences of my life", - gamesradar.

© 2012 Sony Interactive Entertainment LLC. Developed by thatgamecompany. Journey is a trademark of Sony Interactive Entertainment LLC.

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Square Enix Games With The Best Music

• Square Enix excels at using music to enhance gameplay, from intense battles to relaxing exploration in RPGs.
• Games like Octopath Traveler and Final Fantasy 13 feature memorable soundtracks that elevate the overall experience.
• The music in titles like The World Ends With You and Final Fantasy 7 perfectly captures the mood, creating iconic OSTs.

While solid gameplay and good visuals are very important in enhancing a gaming experience, another factor that is also arguably just as vital is the music. There have been plenty of absolutely incredible and memorable video game soundtracks over the years, but if there's any developer who's managed to consistently put out games with great music time and time again, it's without a doubt one of the biggest names in the industry today - Square Enix .

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While a lot of Square Enix's games have amazing orchestral scores and even a handful of vocal tracks, they are also largely credited for innovating how music could be utilized within games, especially in the RPG space. Rather than just playing any old regular track to give the players something to listen to while they play, Square Enix popularized the idea of changing up the music to specifically fit the current situation, whether that be an intense battle or a relaxing stroll across an open world. All of Square Enix's games have at least a few memorable tracks that linger in player's minds long after they've been completed, but these titles listed below are particular standouts when it comes to music.

Octopath Traveler

Octopath traveler's ost perfectly captures the wonderful feeling of setting out on a grand adventure.

Platform(s) Switch, PC, Stadia, Xbox One

Released July 13, 2018

Developer(s) Square Enix

Genre(s) JRPG

Although the core gameplay of Octopath Traveler is heavily inspired by the pixel-art RPGs of old, the soundtrack is a lot more modern, featuring large and bombastic orchestral tracks that suit the grand world of Orsterra where the game takes place. A prime example of this is the stellar battle theme, which immediately engages players in the fight with its quick and sudden tempo and lush violin strings that play in the background.

Another clever way that the music is used in Octopath is by giving each of the eight characters their signature theme that plays upon meeting them, and at certain points of their missions. These do a lot to describe the travelers without even needing to say anything, such as the calm and ambient melody of Ophilia's theme, or the heavy drums that beat throughout Olberic's song. Pair this with a fun and whimsical main theme that perfectly captures the feeling of setting out on a brand-new adventure, and it results in one of Square Enix's best modern soundtracks to date.

The World Ends With You

The endlessly catchy techno-inspired music of the world ends with you is very different from what square enix are known for.

Platform(s) Switch, iOS, Android, Nintendo DS

Released July 27, 2007

Genre(s) Action RPG

In stark contrast to a lot of Square Enix's music scores which tend to be a lot more traditional and classical in their compositions, The World Ends With You instead incorporates elements of hip-hop, jazz, and electronic into its soundtrack to better fit the fun and modernized aesthetic of the game. As a result, pretty much every song featured in the game ends up being incredibly catchy, especially when vocals are also thrown into the mix such as with "Twister" and "Underground," which have become two fan-favorite tracks since the game released.

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Considering that the protagonist Neku can always be seen rocking a pair of headphones, it's also heavily implied that the player is listening to whatever Neku is jamming at the time, which is a subtle touch that goes a long way in allowing players to resonate with the character. Needless to say, this amazing soundtrack does a great job at elevating the sleek and stylish presentation of the game's world and characters, and although it might be very different from what Square Enix is usually known for, it ended up being a very worthwhile gamble in the end.

Final Fantasy 13

Masashi hamauzu elevated the emotional beats of final fantasy 13's story with his exceptional music score.

Platform(s) PS3, Xbox 360, PC

Released March 9, 2010

Due to its lackluster combat and puzzling story, Final Fantasy 13 wasn't exactly very well-received by longtime fans, but one area where it did receive a tremendous amount of praise was in its soundtrack. After years of Nobuo Uematsu composing music for the Final Fantasy games ever since their inception, this tremendous duty was handed over to Masashi Hamauzu for the thirteenth game, and although it must have been a pretty scary situation trying to carry on Uematsu's legacy, Hamauzu managed to thankfully knock it out of the park.

A striking difference between the two, which is notable in a lot of Final Fantasy 13 's music, is how much Hamauzu loves using strings to evoke emotion from the player. Whether it's slow and somber tracks like "Lightning's Theme," jovial and upbeat tracks such as "A Brief Respite," or even the main battle theme, they all incorporate heavy use of violins and pianos to make them stand out from previous games, adding a lot of emotional weight to the game as a result.

Dragon Quest 8: Journey Of The Cursed King

Dragon quest 8 feels like a "greatest hits" of the series with a few extra additions thrown in to keep things fresh, dragon quest 8: journey of the cursed king.

Platform(s) PS2, iOS, Android, 3DS

Released November 15, 2005

Publisher(s) Square Enix

Considering that all Dragon Quest games have pretty amazing soundtracks, choosing between them is no easy task, but if there's one title that has stood the test of time in this department specifically, it would have to be the eighth game in the series. Dragon Quest 8 feels like a grand collection of the series' best hits over the years, which have been expanded and improved upon to create some incredible music, such as the Majestic Castle track for example, which sounds just as high and mighty as one would come to expect, or even the classic Overworld theme which has been modified with a few extra drums to help it sound even more epic and adventurous.

There's just such a staggering variety of music in this game that it adds to the whole idea of going on one big mysterious adventure, with each area feeling incredibly unique and different thanks to the compositions that accompany them. Truthfully, none of the Dragon Quest games have a bad soundtrack, but the eighth game stands out for how it carries over many elements from previous titles, while also doing something entirely new.

Final Fantasy 10

A tremendous amount of passion and care was taken to ensure the ost perfectly suited the game's tone.

Platform(s) PS2

Released December 17, 2001

From the moment that Final Fantasy 10 kicks off, it immediately grabs the player's attention with the game's most iconic track, "Zanarkand," which somehow sounds both hopeless and optimistic at the same time, perfectly suiting the main themes of the story . By this point in the series, Uematsu had become a master at knowing when and where to put specific music tracks, and this shows in Final Fantasy 10 , which features a perfect blend of music from all kinds of genres to accommodate the intended feelings of the audience.

Final Fantasy 10: The Fates Of Every Playable Character

It's pretty astonishing just how perfectly the music of Final Fantasy 10 encapsulates an area or a specific scenario. For example, when traveling up Mt. Gagazet which is the home of the fearsome Ronso tribe, there's a militaristic style theme that plays with heavy drums to make the player feel uneasy about stepping into unfamiliar territory, but Macalania Woods, which is a much more magical and mysterious part of the game, is paired with a more whimsical tune that sparks the player's imagination in all kinds of ways. Final Fantasy 10 already has an outstanding story and great gameplay, but the music goes a long way in elevating the overall experience to make it even more memorable.

Kingdom Hearts 2

Every world in kingdom hearts 2 feels vastly different and unique thanks to the wide range of music featured.

Platform(s) PS3, PS4, PS2, PC

Released March 28, 2006

Genre(s) Action RPG, Hack and Slash

On the surface, Kingdom Hearts 2 can seem like a fairly silly game that's just about meeting popular Disney characters and beating up a few enemies along the way, but the incredible score by Yoko Shimomura makes it very clear that the game is much more serious and meaningful at its core. As soon as players land on the title screen, they'll be met with the incredible "Dearly Beloved" which is already outstanding and very impactful, but then the game delivers yet another classic song in the form of "Sanctuary," a delicate ballad which features captivating vocals by a popular Japanese singer, Hikaru Utada.

The game then cycles between a myriad of different music styles that relate to the world Sora is currently exploring, adding a lot of variety to the soundtrack and making every area feel alive and fully realized. For example, while the Beauty & the Beast castle has a very sophisticated and traditional track that plays in the background, the Pride Lands from The Lion King has a much livelier feel to it, which is a lot more adventurous and exciting. The iconic intro sequence may blow players away with its beautiful music score, but this is only a taste of what the rest of Kingdom Hearts 2 has to offer.

Final Fantasy 7

Nobuo uematsu's score has gone down as one of the most memorable and ionic osts in video game history.

Platform(s) Nintendo Switch, PS4, PC, iOS, PlayStation (Original), Android, Xbox One

Released January 31, 1997

Genre(s) RPG

Often referred to as the bridge between traditional and modern RPGs, Final Fantasy 7 features a soundtrack that perfectly reflects this change in the genre, including plenty of tracks that would suit the 8-bit era , while also ushering in plenty of more modern songs. Rather than just having a single beat that replays on loop over and over again, each of Final Fantasy 7's songs has a slow sense of escalation that enhances everything happening on-screen, such as the intense "Bombing Mission" which only gets louder and more impactful as it goes on, or the iconic battle theme which sounds more desperate the longer a fight lasts.

Throughout Final Fantasy 7 , there's a real sense of dread and mystery that seeps its way into the narrative, and Uematsu captures this feeling perfectly through his music. While there are many examples of this such as "Under The Rotting Pizza" and Forested Temple," by far the most well-known is "One Winged Angel" which has essentially been the golden standard of how to create a memorable and intimidating boss theme. The amount of creativity and passion poured into Final Fantasy 7's OST really is something to be admired, and it's therefore no wonder why so many people still listen to the original music even to this day.

8 Video Games With Beautiful Original Orchestral Music

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Stellar Blade Review: More than a Pretty Face

Note: This review of Stellar Blade is completely spoiler free. Therefore, everything that is discussed and shown here has already been shown in the game’s demo.

Story: Redefined and Unforgettable

When I began my Stellar Blade journey with the demo, I was dubious about the story as it seemed generic and similar to all the other sci-fi games. As such, I was waiting to be proven wrong, and boy was I? Like once Shaq said, now it’s my turn to convey to Shift Up Studios: “ I Owe You an Apology. I Wasn’t Really Familiar with Your Game.”

“Stellar Blade keeps you guessing and on the edge of your seat until the end, with cleverly well-written characters and unforeseeable twists and turns.”

The whole experience of the story coming to an interesting end felt extremely satisfying, like watching a great sci-fi movie or a TV show. The story at play here evolves into a complex tale, making the whole post-apocalyptic voyage with EVE an incredibly thrilling and adventurous ride . I couldn’t help but get my mind blown away every time a reveal was made that shifted and redefined the whole narrative structure of the game.

Appealing Characters Pull the Story’s Strings

Stellar Blade also packs excellent voice acting that truly brings out the character’s emotions. I preferred the South Korean voice language over the English one as I always like to experience any form of entertainment in their original language. However, you can choose anyone you wish, and this game features a lot of memorable dialogue.

Combat: A Blood-Curdling Dance

The developers successfully made the combat go well beyond simply mashing buttons. This is further boosted with an option to boost your perks by collecting different exo-spines and gear sockets. These thoughtful additions are game changers to suit your contrasting playstyles.

Mission & Level Design

“I wish the game had different kinds of innovative missions that you can pull off in a sci-fi game instead of just getting a keycard and fusion cell to advance. “

The side missions here are not groundbreaking; they consist of the same old person or item-rescuing activities. Although they are nothing spectacular, they are decent and entertaining enough to take detours as you feel a connection to the characters.

Packs Enough Difficulty to Keep Things Interesting

The boss fights are riveting from the start. However, I wish some of the bosses had more variety in their move sets, which would have transformed them into remarkable boss battles.

Beauty Blooming From the Ruins of Devastated Earth

Be it the abandoned silent streets of Eidos7, the ruinous city of Xion, or the scorching great desert and wastelands, each area you visit throughout your journey is strikingly distinct from one another . The developers took great time and attention to detail to meticulously craft the ghastly, beautiful, ravaged surroundings with different architectural styles and utmost care.

“That is how they made this world feel alive, and I have never felt this immersive while exploring a post-apocalyptic world in a while.”

Aside from the character designs, the developers have also flexed their artistry skills with the simplest things, such as EVE’s hairclip transforming into her blade, the drone seamlessly turning into a hybrid weapon, EVE’s alluring costumes, etc. Shift Up has topped the charts regarding creativity, and it keeps oozing from everything you see around the nooks and corners of this realm.

Dynamic Music System to Revitalize Your Journey

Graphics & Performance

Unfortunately, there has been a trend of new-gen titles being abysmally optimized, resulting in a dreadful performance. Thankfully, Steallar Blade gave me no such problems. I played the game in the “Balanced” graphic mode (balances resolution and frame rate by upscaling to 4K with 60 FPS) as I wanted the best of both worlds.

Verdict: Never Judge a Game by Its Starlet

Ajith Kumar

An entertainment writer with a passion for analyzing and sharing insights on movies, shows, and anime.

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The Evolving Danger of the New Bird Flu

An unusual outbreak of the disease has spread to dairy herds in multiple u.s. states..

This transcript was created using speech recognition software. While it has been reviewed by human transcribers, it may contain errors. Please review the episode audio before quoting from this transcript and email [email protected] with any questions.

From “The New York Times,” I’m Sabrina Tavernise, and this is “The Daily.”

[MUSIC PLAYING]

The outbreak of bird flu that is tearing through the nation’s poultry farms is the worst in US history. But scientists say it’s now starting to spread into places and species it’s never been before.

Today, my colleague, Emily Anthes, explains.

It’s Monday, April 22.

Emily, welcome back to the show.

Thanks for having me. Happy to be here.

So, Emily, we’ve been talking here on “The Daily” about prices of things and how they’ve gotten so high, mostly in the context of inflation episodes. And one of the items that keeps coming up is eggs. Egg prices were through the roof last year, and we learned it was related to this. Avian flu has been surging in the United States. You’ve been covering this. Tell us what’s happening.

Yes, so I have been covering this virus for the last few years. And the bird flu is absolutely tearing through poultry flocks, and that is affecting egg prices. That’s a concern for everyone, for me and for my family. But when it comes to scientists, egg prices are pretty low on their list of concerns. Because they see this bird flu virus behaving differently than previous versions have. And they’re getting nervous, in particular, about the fact that this virus is reaching places and species where it’s never been before.

OK, so bird flu, though, isn’t new. I mean I remember hearing about cases in Asia in the ‘90s. Remind us how it began.

Bird flu refers to a bunch of different viruses that are adapted to spread best in birds. Wild water birds, in particular, are known for carrying these viruses. And flu viruses are famous for also being shapeshifters. So they’re constantly swapping genes around and evolving into new strains. And as you mentioned back in the ‘90s, a new version of bird flu, a virus known as H5N1, emerged in Asia. And it has been spreading on and off around the world since then, causing periodic outbreaks.

And how are these outbreaks caused?

So wild birds are the reservoir for the virus, which means they carry it in their bodies with them around the world as they fly and travel and migrate. And most of the time, these wild birds, like ducks and geese, don’t even get very sick from this virus. But they shed it. So as they’re traveling over a poultry farm maybe, if they happen to go to the bathroom in a pond that the chickens on the farm are using or eat some of the feed that chickens on the farm are eating, they can leave the virus behind.

And the virus can get into chickens. In some cases, it causes mild illness. It’s what’s known as low pathogenic avian influenza. But sometimes the virus mutates and evolves, and it can become extremely contagious and extremely fatal in poultry.

OK, so the virus comes through wild birds, but gets into farms like this, as you’re describing. How have farms traditionally handled outbreaks, when they do happen?

Well, because this threat isn’t new, there is a pretty well-established playbook for containing outbreaks. It’s sometimes known as stamping out. And brutally, what it means is killing the birds. So the virus is so deadly in this highly pathogenic form that it’s sort of destined to kill all the birds on a farm anyway once it gets in. So the response has traditionally been to proactively depopulate or cull all the birds, so it doesn’t have a chance to spread.

So that’s pretty costly for farmers.

It is. Although the US has a program where it will reimburse farmers for their losses. And the way these reimbursements work is they will reimburse farmers only for the birds that are proactively culled, and not for those who die naturally from the virus. And the thinking behind that is it’s a way to incentivize farmers to report outbreaks early.

So, OK, lots of chickens are killed in a way to manage these outbreaks. So we know how to deal with them. But what about now? Tell me about this new strain.

So this new version of the virus, it emerged in 2020.

After the deadly outbreak of the novel coronavirus, authorities have now confirmed an outbreak of the H5N1 strain of influenza, a kind of bird flu.

And pretty quickly it became clear that a couple things set it apart.

A bald eagle found dead at Carvins Cove has tested positive for the highly contagious bird flu.

This virus, for whatever reason, seemed very good at infecting all sorts of wild birds that we don’t normally associate with bird flu.

[BIRD CRYING]

He was kind of stepping, and then falling over, and using its wing to right itself.

Things like eagles and condors and pelicans.

We just lost a parliament of owls in Minneapolis.

Yeah, a couple of high profile nests.

And also in the past, wild birds have not traditionally gotten very sick from this virus. And this version of the virus not only spread widely through the wild bird population, but it proved to be devastating.

The washing up along the East Coast of the country from Scotland down to Suffolk.

We were hearing about mass die-offs of seabirds in Europe by the hundreds and the thousands.

And the bodies of the dead dot the island wherever you look.

Wow. OK. So then as we know, this strain, like previous ones, makes its way from wild animals to farmed animals, namely to chickens. But it’s even more deadly.

Absolutely. And in fact, it has already caused the worst bird flu outbreak in US history. So more than 90 million birds in the US have died as a result of this virus.

90 million birds.

Yes, and I should be clear that represents two things. So some of those birds are birds who naturally got infected and died from the virus. But the vast majority of them are birds that were proactively culled. What it adds up to is, is 90 million farmed birds in the US have died since this virus emerged. And it’s not just a chicken problem. Another thing that has been weird about this virus is it has jumped into other kinds of farms. It is the first time we’ve seen a bird flu virus jump into US livestock.

And it’s now been reported on a number of dairy farms across eight US states. And that’s just something that’s totally unprecedented.

So it’s showing up at Dairy farms now. You’re saying that bird flu has now spread to cows. How did that happen?

So we don’t know exactly how cows were first infected, but most scientists’ best guess is that maybe an infected wild bird that was migrating shed the virus into some cattle feed or a pasture or a pond, and cattle picked it up. The good news is they don’t seem to get nearly as sick as chickens do. They are generally making full recoveries on their own in a couple of weeks.

OK, so no mass culling of cows?

No, that doesn’t seem to be necessary at this point. But the bad news is that it’s starting to look like we’re seeing this virus spread from cow to cow. We don’t know exactly how that’s happening yet. But anytime you see cow-to-cow or mammal-to-mammal transmission, that’s a big concern.

And why is that exactly?

Well, there are a bunch of reasons. First, it could allow the outbreak to get much bigger, much faster, which might increase the risk to the food supply. And we might also expect it to increase the risk to farm workers, people who might be in contact with these sick cows.

Right now, the likelihood that a farmer who gets this virus passes it on is pretty low. But any time you see mammal-to-mammal transmission, it increases the chance that the virus will adapt and possibly, maybe one day get good at spreading between humans. To be clear, that’s not something that there’s any evidence happening in cows right now. But the fact that there’s any cow-to-cow transmission happening at all is enough to have scientists a bit concerned.

And then if we think more expansively beyond what’s happening on farms, there’s another big danger lurking out there. And that’s what happens when this virus gets into wild animals, vast populations that we can’t control.

We’ll be right back.

So, Emily, you said that another threat was the threat of flu in wild animal populations. Clearly, of course, it’s already in wild birds. Where else has it gone?

Well, the reason it’s become such a threat is because of how widespread it’s become in wild birds. So they keep reintroducing it to wild animal populations pretty much anywhere they go. So we’ve seen the virus repeatedly pop up in all sorts of animals that you might figure would eat a wild bird, so foxes, bobcats, bears. We actually saw it in a polar bear, raccoons. So a lot of carnivores and scavengers.

The thinking is that these animals might stumble across a sick or dead bird, eat it, and contract the virus that way. But we’re also seeing it show up in some more surprising places, too. We’ve seen the virus in a bottle-nosed dolphin, of all places.

And most devastatingly, we’ve seen enormous outbreaks in other sorts of marine mammals, especially sea lions and seals.

So elephant seals, in particular in South America, were just devastated by this virus last fall. My colleague Apoorva Mandavilli and I were talking to some scientists in South America who described to us what they called a scene from hell, of walking out onto a beach in Argentina that is normally crowded with chaotic, living, breathing, breeding, elephant seals — and the beach just being covered by carcass, after carcass, after carcass.

Mostly carcasses of young newborn pups. The virus seemed to have a mortality rate of 95 percent in these elephant seal pups, and they estimated that it might have killed more than 17,000 of the pups that were born last year. So almost the entire new generation of this colony. These are scientists that have studied these seals for decades. And they said they’ve never seen anything like it before.

And why is it so far reaching, Emily? I mean, what explains these mass die-offs?

There are probably a few explanations. One is just how much virus is out there in the environment being shed by wild birds into water and onto beaches. These are also places that viruses like this haven’t been before. So it’s reaching elephant seals and sea lions in South America that have no prior immunity.

There’s also the fact that these particular species, these sea lions and seals, tend to breed in these huge colonies all crowded together on beaches. And so what that means is if a virus makes its way into the colony, it’s very conducive conditions for it to spread. And scientists think that that’s actually what’s happening now. That it’s not just that all these seals are picking up the virus from individual birds, but that they’re actually passing it to each other.

So basically, this virus is spreading to places it’s never been before, kind of virgin snow territory, where animals just don’t have the immunity against it. And once it gets into a population packed on a beach, say, of elephant seals, it’s just like a knife through butter.

Absolutely. And an even more extreme example of that is what we’re starting to see happen in Antarctica, where there’s never been a bird flu outbreak before until last fall, for the first time, this virus reached the Antarctic mainland. And we are now seeing the virus move through colonies of not only seabirds and seals, but penguin colonies, which have not been exposed to these viruses before.

And it’s too soon to say what the toll will be. But penguins also, of course, are known for breeding in these large colonies.

Probably. don’t have many immune defenses against this virus, and of course, are facing all these other environmental threats. And so there’s a lot of fear that you add on the stress of a bird flu virus, and it could just be a tipping point for penguins.

Emily, at this point, I’m kind of wondering why more people aren’t talking about this. I mean, I didn’t know any of this before having this conversation with you, and it feels pretty worrying.

Well, a lot of experts and scientists are talking about this with rising alarm and in terms that are quite stark. They’re talking about the virus spreading through wild animal populations so quickly and so ferociously that they’re calling it an ecological disaster.

But that’s a disaster that sometimes seems distant from us, both geographically, we’re talking about things that are happening maybe at the tip of Argentina or in Antarctica. And also from our concerns of our everyday lives, what’s happening in Penguins might not seem like it has a lot to do with the price of a carton of eggs at the grocery store. But I think that we should be paying a lot of attention to how this virus is moving through animal populations, how quickly it’s moving through animal populations, and the opportunities that it is giving the virus to evolve into something that poses a much bigger threat to human health.

So the way it’s spreading in wild animals, even in remote places like Antarctica, that’s important to watch, at least in part because there’s a real danger to people here.

So we know that the virus can infect humans, and that generally it’s not very good at spreading between humans. But the concern all along has been that if this virus has more opportunities to spread between mammals, it will get better at spreading between them. And that seems to be what is happening in seals and sea lions. Scientists are already seeing evidence that the virus is adapting as it passes from marine mammal to marine mammal. And that could turn it into a virus that’s also better at spreading between people.

And if somebody walks out onto a beach and touches a dead sea lion, if their dog starts playing with a sea lion carcass, you could imagine that this virus could make its way out of marine mammals and into the human population. And if it’s this mammalian adapted version of the virus that makes its way out, that could be a bigger threat to human health.

So the sheer number of hosts that this disease has, the more opportunity it has to mutate, and the more chance it has to mutate in a way that would actually be dangerous for people.

Yes, and in particular, the more mammalian hosts. So that gives the virus many more opportunities to become a specialist in mammals instead of a specialist in birds, which is what it is right now.

Right. I like that, a specialist in mammals. So what can we do to contain this virus?

Well, scientists are exploring new options. There’s been a lot of discussion about whether we should start vaccinating chickens in the US. The government, USDA labs, have been testing some poultry vaccines. It’s probably scientifically feasible. There are challenges there, both in terms of logistics — just how would you go about vaccinating billions of chickens every year. There are also trade questions. Traditionally, a lot of countries have not been willing to accept poultry products from countries that vaccinate their poultry.

And there’s concern about whether the virus might spread undetected in flocks that are vaccinated. So as we saw with COVID, the vaccine can sometimes stop you from getting sick, but it doesn’t necessarily stop infection. And so countries are worried they might unknowingly import products that are harboring the virus.

And what about among wild animals? I mean, how do you even begin to get your head around that?

Yeah, I mean, thinking about vaccinating wild animals maybe makes vaccinating all the chickens in the US look easy. There has been some discussion of limited vaccination campaigns, but that’s not feasible on a global scale. So unfortunately, the bottom line is there isn’t a good way to stop spread in wild animals. We can try to protect some vulnerable populations, but we’re not going to stop the circulation of this virus.

So, Emily, we started this conversation with a kind of curiosity that “The Daily” had about the price of eggs. And then you explained the bird flu to us. And then somehow we ended up learning about an ecological disaster that’s unfolding all around us, and potentially the source of the next human pandemic. That is pretty scary.

It is scary, and it’s easy to get overwhelmed by it. And I feel like I should take a step back and say none of this is inevitable. None of this is necessarily happening tomorrow. But this is why scientists are concerned and why they think it’s really important to keep a very close eye on what’s happening both on farms and off farms, as this virus spreads through all sorts of animal populations.

One thing that comes up again and again and again in my interviews with people who have been studying bird flu for decades, is how this virus never stops surprising them. And sometimes those are bad surprises, like these elephant seal die-offs, the incursions into dairy cattle. But there are some encouraging signs that have emerged recently. We’re starting to see some early evidence that some of the bird populations that survived early brushes with this virus might be developing some immunity. So that’s something that maybe could help slow the spread of this virus in animal populations.

We just don’t entirely know how this is going to play out. Flu is a very difficult, wily foe. And so that’s one reason scientists are trying to keep such a close, attentive eye on what’s happening.

Emily, thank you.

Thanks for having me.

Here’s what else you should know today.

On this vote, the yeas are 366 and the nays are 58. The bill is passed.

On Saturday, in four back-to-back votes, the House voted resoundingly to approve a long-stalled package of aid to Ukraine, Israel and other American allies, delivering a major victory to President Biden, who made aid to Ukraine one of his top priorities.

On this vote, the yeas are 385, and the no’s are 34 with one answering present. The bill is passed without objection.

The House passed the component parts of the $95 billion package, which included a bill that could result in a nationwide ban of TikTok.

On this vote, the yeas are 311 and the nays are 112. The bill is passed.

Oh, one voting present. I missed it, but thank you.

In a remarkable breach of custom, Democrats stepped in to supply the crucial votes to push the legislation past hard-line Republican opposition and bring it to the floor.

The House will be in order.

The Senate is expected to pass the legislation as early as Tuesday.

Today’s episode was produced by Rikki Novetsky, Nina Feldman, Eric Krupke, and Alex Stern. It was edited by Lisa Chow and Patricia Willens; contains original music by Marion Lozano, Dan Powell, Rowan Niemisto, and Sophia Lanman; and was engineered by Chris Wood. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsverk of Wonderly. Special thanks to Andrew Jacobs.

That’s it for “The Daily.” I’m Sabrina Tavernise. See you tomorrow.

• April 25, 2024   •   40:33 The Crackdown on Student Protesters
• April 24, 2024   •   32:18 Is $60 Billion Enough to Save Ukraine?
• April 23, 2024   •   30:30 A Salacious Conspiracy or Just 34 Pieces of Paper?
• April 22, 2024   •   24:30 The Evolving Danger of the New Bird Flu
• April 19, 2024   •   30:42 The Supreme Court Takes Up Homelessness
• April 18, 2024   •   30:07 The Opening Days of Trump’s First Criminal Trial
• April 17, 2024   •   24:52 Are ‘Forever Chemicals’ a Forever Problem?
• April 16, 2024   •   29:29 A.I.’s Original Sin
• April 15, 2024   •   24:07 Iran’s Unprecedented Attack on Israel
• April 14, 2024   •   46:17 The Sunday Read: ‘What I Saw Working at The National Enquirer During Donald Trump’s Rise’
• April 12, 2024   •   34:23 How One Family Lost $900,000 in a Timeshare Scam
• April 11, 2024   •   28:39 The Staggering Success of Trump’s Trial Delay Tactics

Hosted by Sabrina Tavernise

Produced by Rikki Novetsky ,  Nina Feldman ,  Eric Krupke and Alex Stern

Edited by Lisa Chow and Patricia Willens

Original music by Marion Lozano ,  Dan Powell ,  Rowan Niemisto and Sophia Lanman

Engineered by Chris Wood

Listen and follow The Daily Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Amazon Music

The outbreak of bird flu currently tearing through the nation’s poultry is the worst in U.S. history. Scientists say it is now spreading beyond farms into places and species it has never been before.

Emily Anthes, a science reporter for The Times, explains.

On today’s episode

Emily Anthes , a science reporter for The New York Times.

Background reading

Scientists have faulted the federal response to bird flu outbreaks on dairy farms .

Here’s what to know about the outbreak.

There are a lot of ways to listen to The Daily. Here’s how.

We aim to make transcripts available the next workday after an episode’s publication. You can find them at the top of the page.

Special thanks to Andrew Jacobs .

The Daily is made by Rachel Quester, Lynsea Garrison, Clare Toeniskoetter, Paige Cowett, Michael Simon Johnson, Brad Fisher, Chris Wood, Jessica Cheung, Stella Tan, Alexandra Leigh Young, Lisa Chow, Eric Krupke, Marc Georges, Luke Vander Ploeg, M.J. Davis Lin, Dan Powell, Sydney Harper, Mike Benoist, Liz O. Baylen, Asthaa Chaturvedi, Rachelle Bonja, Diana Nguyen, Marion Lozano, Corey Schreppel, Rob Szypko, Elisheba Ittoop, Mooj Zadie, Patricia Willens, Rowan Niemisto, Jody Becker, Rikki Novetsky, John Ketchum, Nina Feldman, Will Reid, Carlos Prieto, Ben Calhoun, Susan Lee, Lexie Diao, Mary Wilson, Alex Stern, Dan Farrell, Sophia Lanman, Shannon Lin, Diane Wong, Devon Taylor, Alyssa Moxley, Summer Thomad, Olivia Natt, Daniel Ramirez and Brendan Klinkenberg.

Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsverk of Wonderly. Special thanks to Sam Dolnick, Paula Szuchman, Lisa Tobin, Larissa Anderson, Julia Simon, Sofia Milan, Mahima Chablani, Elizabeth Davis-Moorer, Jeffrey Miranda, Renan Borelli, Maddy Masiello, Isabella Anderson and Nina Lassam.

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World Cafe Words and Music Podcast

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Lizzie No's 'Halfsies' is like an epic role-playing video game

Stephen Kallao

Lizzie No on World Cafe

Lizzie No Cole Nielsen/Courtesy of the artist hide caption

• "Sleeping in the Next Room"
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I was immediately intrigued when I heard singer-songwriter Lizzie No call her latest album a video game. As someone who grew up playing Final Fantasy and other role-playing games, I thought an album presented as an epic journey filled with leveling up and finding allies was right up my alley.

In this session, No joins me to talk about that album, Halfsies; the player character who sets off on this adventure named "Miss Freedomland"; and why No considers the album a video game.

No also talks about being saddled by genre labels that didn't reflect the music she makes and how Beyoncé inspired her to break away from that mold.

Also, just a head's up: This interview covers a lot of ground, including a discussion about abuse and trauma.

This episode of World Cafe was produced and edited by Stephen Kallao. The web story was created by Miguel Perez. Our senior producer is Kimberly Junod and our engineer is Chris Williams. Our programming and booking coordinator is Chelsea Johnson and our line producer is Will Loftus.

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The life and music of Amy Winehouse, through the journey of adolescence to adulthood and the creation of one of the best-selling albums of our time. The life and music of Amy Winehouse, through the journey of adolescence to adulthood and the creation of one of the best-selling albums of our time. The life and music of Amy Winehouse, through the journey of adolescence to adulthood and the creation of one of the best-selling albums of our time.

• Sam Taylor-Johnson
• Matt Greenhalgh
• Marisa Abela
• Eddie Marsan
• Jack O'Connell
• 50 User reviews
• 60 Critic reviews
• 49 Metascore

• Amy Winehouse

• Mitch Winehouse

• Blake Fielder-Civil

• Cynthia Winehouse

• Joey the dealer

• Nick Shymansky

• Janis Winehouse

• Raye Cosbert

• Chris Taylor

• Artist Development Man
• Aunt Melody

• Perfume Paul

• All cast & crew
• Production, box office & more at IMDbPro

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Did you know

• Trivia Marisa Abela had done most of the singing in this film herself. She trained extensively to mimic Amy Winehouse 's vocals.

Technical specs

• Runtime 2 hours 2 minutes

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