aftermarket cruise control ls3

LS Engine DIY

Do It Yourself LS Engines

Upgrading to Gen III LS-Series PCM: Cruise Control Guide

February 15, 2015 by LS Engine DiY

All Gen III vehicles were available with cruise control. Engines with a cable-actuated throttle body require an electronic cruise control module with an internal stepper motor to pull and release a throttle cable to maintain vehicle speed. Engines with an electronic throttle body rely on the TAC module to increase and decrease throttle blade angle to maintain vehicle speed.

This Tech Tip is From the Full Book, HOW TO USE AND UPGRADE TO GM GEN III LS-SERIES POWERTRAIN CONTROL SYSTEMS . For a comprehensive guide on this entire subject you can visit this link:

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Cable Throttle Systems

Early cruise control systems took control of the throttle blade angle through a vacuum-operated actuator that pulled and released a throttle cable. The actuator relied on engine vacuum for operation. Early cruise control systems have a lag response to driver commands. Making cruise control performance worse is an aged diaphragm that has developed a leak and no longer operates properly.

Electronic throttle systems use a TAC module (right), while cable throttle systems use a cable-driven cruise control module (left). The TAC module is wired to a motor mounted within the throttle body assembly and uses PCM data to change throttle angle to maintain cruise control vehicle speed. The cable throttle cruise control module shown here also uses PCM data to maintain cruise control vehicle speed, but must manually pull the throttle linkage to change throttle angle.

Newer cruise control systems abandoned the vacuum actuator for an electronic module with an internal stepper motor to pull and release a throttle cable to maintain vehicle speed. These systems have a better performance feel than the old vacuum-type systems. The required components of the cruise control system, however, have not changed much.

Required Components

To install a GM cruise control module for your cable throttle system, several components are required. Most of them, such as cruise control switches, clutch switch, and brake switches, may already be in your car. Any missing components can either be sourced from a salvaged GM vehicle or through the aftermarket.

Cruise Control Module: The cruise control module for cable throttle vehicles is a relevant discussion for Gen III PCMs because of the PCM’s availability of primary and secondary VSS outputs that may be used to satisfy the cruise control module’s 4,000-pulse-per-mile input requirement.Also, the 1999–2002 Camaro/ Firebird cruise control modules require cruise inhibit and cruise enabled status communication signals with the PCM .

Early GM systems used a vacuum-controlled actuator to pull a throttle cable. These systems require a VSS (most commonly a 2,000-pulseper- mile signal) to maintain cruise control vehicle speed. Rather than using an internal motor like the newer cable-driven cruise control modules, these early units use engine vacuum to control a diaphragm that pulls a throttle cable. The result is a lazy response to the driver’s cruise control commands.

This 1996-newer GM cruise module assembly contains a circuit board for processing cruise control logic, an internal motor to operate a worm-driven gear, and a short braided strap to pull the throttle cable. This cruise control module uses PCM data to control the movement of the throttle cable when cruise control is active.

This Rostra cruise control switch (# 250-3020) may be used in a GM application for on/off and set/coast signals. The aftermarket offers several types of cruise control switches for different steering column configurations. If you cannot identify one to suit your application, you could make your own set of dash or center console mounted switches. With an on/off switch, two momentary switches, and little creativity, you can create an inexpensive cruise control switch solution.

Cruise control modules compatible with Gen III conversions are plentiful.  You may choose from cruise control modules found in 1996- newer Vortec trucks and LS series vehicles. The cruise control module receives signals from several switches and, when necessary, takes control of throttle blade angle through a cable attached to the engine’s throttle body. Installation is rather simple. The most difficult part may be adapting the cruise control throttle cableto your throttle body’s linkage if the cable end does not match.

PCM: In production vehicles, the PCM is used to output a 4,000-pulseper- mile VSS signal to the cruise control module. This is a common pulse count used with many early GM ECMs and VSS buffer boxes. An optional cruise engaged status signal is available for communication between the PCM and cruise control module. For retrofits using a 1999–2002 Camaro/Firebird cruise control module, the cruise engaged status and cruise inhibit signal wires must be used.

VSS Signal: The 4,000-pulse-permile VSS input to the cruise control module is required, but the PCM is not required to provide it. Retrofit projects sometimes introduce VSS buffer modules to receive a VSS signal that is not compatible with the Gen III PCM and to provide several VSS outputs for devices such as the speedometer or PCM.

Not all aftermarket cruise control switches provide the signals required by the GM systems. This Rostra switch does not provide an independently pulsed 12V signal fo the resume/accel function. In such cases, only the on/off and set/coast switches may be used.

1996-newer GM cruise control module schematic looks like this. Notice the PCM cruise status and cruise inhibit signals are only required for 1999–2002 Camaro and Firebird cruise control modules. In general, the cruise control module requires 12V switched ignition, ground, VSS, cruise control switches, normally open brake switch (stop lamp switch), normally closed brake switch (commonly a torque converter clutch switch), and a manual transmission clutch switch (if so equipped).

This schematic represents a typical GM cruise control switch wired to a TAC module. The TAC module generally requires 12V switched ignition, ground, PCM serial data circuits, cruise control switches, normally open brake switch (stop lamp switch), normally closed brake switch (commonly a torque converter clutch switch), and a manual transmission clutch switch (if so equipped).

A VSS buffer module may also be used to provide a 4,000-pulse-permile VSS signal to the cruise control module. Remember, however, the Gen III PCM has two configurable VSS outputs to choose from that provide a 4,000-pulse-per-mile signal dedicated to the cruise control module. (See Chapter 15, Project 1, on page 112 for setting the 4,000-pulseper- mile VSS signal with EFILive.)

Cruise Control Switches: The required cruise control switch signals multifunction lever of GM steering columns. The on/off signal is normally open switched 12V, the set/ coast signal is momentary 12V, and the resume/accel signal is momentary 12V.

Rostra Precision Controls offers a variety of cruise control switches that may be used if your steering column’s multifunction lever does not have the necessary cruise control switches. (See Chapter 15, Project 1, on page 112 to see an early GM steering column with only a set/coast cruise control switch.)

Brake Switch: The cruise control module requires two brake switch signals. A normally closed 12V switch applies power to the clutch/brake switch input (pin D) and a normally open 12V switch applies stop lamp voltage to the brake input (pin G). These signals are used to disengage cruise control when the brake pedal is depressed.

Clutch Switch: If using a manual transmission, a normally closed clutch switch should be wired on the same circuit as the normally closed brake switch. Depressing the clutch switch removes 12V from the cruise control module (pin D) to disengage cruise control.

Operation Overview

With the exception of the 1999– 2002 Camaro/Firebird cruise control modules, the 1996-newer truck and 1998 Camaro/Firebird cruise control modules can be used as standalone units. These modules require 12V ignition, ground, cruise control switch signals, brake switch signal, clutch switch signal, stop lamp switch signal, and a 4,000-pulseper- mile vehicle speed signal. Once installed in a retrofit vehicle, the performance is improved compared to early cruise control systems operated by engine vacuum.

Set/Coast: To set cruise control, the cruise control module requires a 12V switched-on signal and a 12V momentary set signal from the multifunction lever. With the 12V on signal present at the cruise control module and the vehicle at a desired speed, pushing the set button adds the vehicle’s current speed to the cruise control module’s memory.

The driver may remove his or her foot from the accelerator pedal and the cruise control module overrides the throttle blade angle to increase or decrease vehicle speed. Pressing and holding the set/coast button causes the vehicle to coast to a reduced speed. Releasing the set/coast button stores the new reduced vehicle speed in the cruise control module’s memory. Quickly pressing and releasing the set/coast button subtracts 1 mph from the cruise control module’s memory.

Resume/Accelerate:  Once cruise control is active and the driver depresses the clutch or brake pedal, the cruise control module no longer controls throttle blade angle. The previously set vehicle speed remains stored in the cruise control module’s memory. Sliding the resume/accel switch requests the cruise control module to take over throttle blade   angle and accelerate the vehicle to the previously set vehicle speed.

Sliding and holding the resume/ accel switch increases vehicle speed until the switch is released. The new vehicle speed is stored in the cruise control module’s memory. Quickly sliding and releasing the resume/ accel switch adds 1 mph to the cruise control module’s memory.

If the cruise control on/off switch is set to off or the vehicle is shut off, the cruise control module’s memory is erased and sliding the resume/accel switch does not return the vehicle to a previously set speed.

Erasing Cruise Speed Memory: When the driver disengages cruise control by depressing the clutch or brake pedal, the cruise control module retains its memory and allows the driver to use the resume/accel switch to resume the vehicle speed stored in memory. To clear the cruise control module’s memory of vehicle speed, turn off the on/off switch or shut off the vehicle’s ignition switch. This removes 12V power from the cruise control module and clear its memory.

Disengaging Cruise Control: The cruise control module retains the set vehicle speed in its memory until it loses 12V power through the cruise control on/off switch or the vehicle’s ignition switch. To disengage (but not disable) the cruise control module’s control of throttle blade angle, gently apply the clutch or brake pedal to momentarily remove 12V power from the cruise control module’s brake/clutch signal input.

To disable cruise control, slide the cruise control on/off switch to the off position.

Inhibit Signal

Be cautious of cruise control modules from 1999–2002 Camaros/ Firebirds. These cruise control

modules are “more intelligent” than truck modules. In the 1999–2002 Camaro/Firebird, the PCM may inhibit (prevent) cruise control operation based on vehicle speed, park/neutral switch signal, engine RPM, or battery voltage. If the PCM commands the cruise inhibit signal to the cruise control module and the cruise control module returns an active cruise engaged status signal, the PCM sets a DTC related to the cruise control system.

Most people find this extra layer of protection unnecessary and prefer a cruise control module from a 1996-newer truck or 1998 Camaro/ Firebird. The 1998 Camaro/Firebird PCM cannot output a cruise inhibit signal, so the 1998 Camaro/Firebird cruise module functions the same as the 1996-newer truck modules.

Identifying a 1999–2002 Camaro/ Firebird cruise control module is rather easy. All ten harness connector cavities are used. Vehicles with the cruise inhibit signal require its use when installing the cruise control module in a retrofit vehicle. While you likely do not see a wire in connector

cavity H for any other vehicle, a quick visual inspection of the wire harness shows whether the cruise inhibit signal is required.

Electronic Throttle Systems

All Gen III vehicles with an electronic throttle body rely on the TAC module for cruise control operation. During normal engine operation, the TAC module is used to increase and decrease the throttle blade angle. By using the available cruise control switch inputs, the TAC module can respond to the driver’s cruise control commands to maintain vehicle speed.

Being fully integrated into the electronic throttle system, the driver’s cruise control commands are instantaneously applied to the throttle and the feel of acceleration and deceleration is smooth and seamless.

The switches and inputs are very similar to those of cable-operated cruise control modules.

It’s likely that after an electronic throttle installation your vehicle will have all of the components necessary for integrated cruise control. By using the TAC module’s cruise control switch inputs and brake/clutch switches, any retrofit vehicle can be ready for cruise control. The following switch signals are required by the electronic throttle system for cruise control operation.

Cruise Control Switch: The required cruise control switch signals are no different than those for Gen III vehicles with cable throttle body and cruise control module. The on/ off signal is normally open switched 12V, the set/coast signal is momentary 12V, and the resume/accel signal is momentary 12V. If your retrofit vehicle does not have a multifunction lever on the steering column with cruise control switches, you can find them in the aftermarket.

Brake Switch: The cruise control system requires two brake switch signals. A normally closed 12V switch applies power to the TCC brake switch input of the PCM and a normally open 12V switch applies stop lamp voltage to the stop lamp input of the TAC module. These signals are used to disengage cruise control when the brake pedal is depressed.

Clutch Switch: If using a manual transmission, a normally closed 12V clutch switch must be wired to the PCM (blue connector, pin 35). Depressing the clutch switch removes 12V from the PCM’s clutch switch input to disengage cruise control.

Written by Mike Noonan and Posted with Permission of CarTechBooks

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LS Swap Cruise Control Made Simple! Use Factory Parts To Add Cruise Control To Your LS Swapped Ride

Aug 03, 2021 Chad Reynolds ENGINE , ENGINES , Hack of the Week , TECH , Tech Stories , Videos 1

Cruise control is a nice thing to have in your car or truck, but it isn’t always easy to do in your hot rod or truck that has had a late-model engine swap. For years we’ve used the Dakota Digital Cruise Control system and it works great on both carbureted and throttle-body equipped cars. But if you are doing a late model engine swap, it would be kind of nice to be able to use the factory system. And on a cable throttle equipped LS engine that is super simple if you just get the cruise control unit off the throttle body and make a few electrical connections.

In this video from Halfass Kustoms you will see Brent working on his wife’s bitchin Dodge truck that has been LS Swapped. But the little truck isn’t super comfortable for someone Brent’s height on a long trip, and he’d like to put some cruise control on the thing so it’s more comfortable. And because it has a GM steering column in it, there isn’t even a need for any custom buttons to make it all work. In the video below, he goes over his mistakes while trying to make this all work and then gives a complete guide to what wires need to be connected to what and why. And it all works smooth and simple just like factory!

Check it out.

Chad Reynolds

One thought on “ LS Swap Cruise Control Made Simple! Use Factory Parts To Add Cruise Control To Your LS Swapped Ride ”

halfass is right. stuck in the gutter with no imagination. i’ll be glad when electric overtakes the ls.

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250-1881 Cruise Control for GM LS and Ford Drive by Wire ETC Engines

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• Product Description

The 250-1881 is a complete Ford and GM LS drive by wire cruise control kit for vehicles with ETC electronic throttle engines. It comes complete with a direct wire adapter that will connect directly to your OEM LS accelerator pedal. This kit requires a 4000 ppm speed signal input. If you do not have that signal, or do not know what signal you have, you will need the 250-1882 kit. We offer three cruise control switch options as well. It comes with installation instructions (located below) and lifetime technical assistance. Please call with any questions before purchasing this kit.    **** This kit will NOT work with 2003-2006 5.3 or 6.0 set ups. If your vehicle has a TAC module, this kit will not work. ****

250-1881 Installation Instructions

LS installation

Posted by Unknown on 27th Feb 2020

My setup was not totally standard, so great tech support from Michael was needed to get it completed, Works great.

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A Backyard Mechanics Guide to an LS3 Swap

Sixty8Camaro

Bought a toy to play with, a “Mavic Air 2” It’s pretty easy to use, but now I have to learn how to edit videos. Here are two unedited ones for now. .  

it’s terrible how use we get to the luxury of having cruise control in our newer cars. I drove an hour and a half on the highway to a car show last week and boy did my ankle cramp up from holding the pedal in one position the whole time. Anyone have a recommendation for an aftermarket cruise control? .  

Sixty8Camaro said: it’s terrible how use we get to the luxury of having cruise control in our newer cars. I drove an hour and a half on the highway to a car show last week and boy did my ankle cramp up from holding the pedal in one position the whole time. Anyone have a recommendation for an aftermarket cruise control? . Click to expand...

Dakota Digital has a cruise control. Don  

dhutton said: Dakota Digital has a cruise control. Don Click to expand...

Sixty8Camaro said: Bought a toy to play with, a “Mavic Air 2” It’s pretty easy to use, but now I have to learn how to edit videos. Here are two unedited ones for now. . Click to expand...

Vega$69 said: is that the drone they sell at Costco for like $400? Click to expand...

Vega$69 said: yes installed DD cruise control in a 69 LS3 swap with TKO600. Click to expand...

Sixty8Camaro said: Along with their CRC-1000 unit, DD told me I would have to manually splice in their “SGI-100BT: Universal Speedometer and Tachometer Interface” into the Transmission connector that plugs into the “Holley Terminator X Max”? . Click to expand...

No, I went with the Holley Digital Dash that works seamlessly with the Terminator X. I really like how customizable the dash is.  

So definitely have an issue with in-tank fuel pump, well I think so anyways? Here are two short videos, the first one I wanted to make sure it was not something coming from the fuel regulator? This second video is at the fuel cap and to me is sounds as though its coming from inside the tank. Would anyone have an alternative recommendation for a replacement in-tank pump? The one I have came with the tank. 1967-68 Chevy Camaro/Firebird, Coated Steel, EFI, Gas .  

Those pumps are not very forgiving if you run them low or even worse dry. I’m guessing it’s a Walbro 255 knockoff. Maybe try a genuine Walbro 255 pump. Make sure it’s real and not a counterfeit. I prefer to run a Vaporworx PWM pump controller instead of a bypass regulator and the pump running wide open. That pump consumes roughly 150 watts which is a fair amount of heat. A PWM controller only runs the pump as hard as the load requires. Edit: It occurs to me you might have very little fuel in the tank. Add some fuel and it might quiet down some. Don  

I’ll half to do some research on Vaporworx PWM pump controllers, deem expensiv? The tank has neaver been low and makes the same noise even when full. Only thing I’ll add is initially for a few miles it is dead silent but once it starts making the noise it does no stop. The pump specs indicates it pulls 10.4 Amps so I have it wired directly to TERMINATOR X, I’m not using a relay does it matter? [Optional] 12V Fuel Pump – Color = Green - Used to directly power a fuel pump (+12 volt). Do not use this wire to power fuel pumps that require over 15 Amps.  

Maybe put a voltmeter on the pump and make sure it is getting sufficient voltage when it is noisy. Sounds like the pump is failing imho. Not sure you can use PWM control with a Walbro style pump. You need to check with Carl at Vaporworx. Don  

Shannon4570

My in tank pump in my Suburban got noisy when it was getting ready to fail and when I had it replace the mechanic insisted it be replace with a factory unit (I think a Bosch) or they wouldn't guarantee the work. The fact that it's quiet then starts making a racket sounds like it's heating up and then complaining. I used the Vaporworx constant pressure regulator with my setup (SS pump) and so far so good. I have a ZL1 pump as well but it requires the PWM which I wasn't ready to do (1 PWM controller at a time thank you).  

I also find myself wondering if how I sealed it to the tank is playing any part what seems to be this high picked vibration? What I used on the cork gasket is "Indian Head Gasket Shellac" which seem to have dried hard as a rock? I wonder if a simple rubber gasket would have caused a little less vibration?  

Sixty8Camaro said: I also find myself wondering if how I sealed it to the tank is playing any part what seems to be this high picked vibration? What I used on the cork gasket is "Indian Head Gasket Shellac" which seem to have dried hard as a rock? I wonder if a simple rubber gasket would have caused a little less vibration? Click to expand...

Thanks guys, I have ordered a new pump directly from Walbro.  

Brettallen59

Sixty8Camaro said: The pump specs indicates it pulls 10.4 Amps so I have it wired directly to TERMINATOR X, I’m not using a relay does it matter? [Optional] 12V Fuel Pump – Color = Green - Used to directly power a fuel pump (+12 volt). Do not use this wire to power fuel pumps that require over 15 Amps. Click to expand...

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Cruise control with LS3?

• Thread starter PeteB
• Start date Aug 28, 2013

• Aug 28, 2013

My wife and I were discussing details of my planned build and she mentioned cruise control. Many times I wished I had cruise in my Cobra, so I'd really like to install in my SL-C. But...how do you do it with the electronic gas pedal? :huh: Anyone do this yet?  

Ken Roberts

These guys claim to have a cruise control system for drive by wire LS3/LS7/LS9 engines.:thumbsup::idea: Cruise Control Here is a discussion about it on ls1tech http://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iv-external-engine/1490791-ls3-cruise-control-dbw-58x.html My SLC will have cruise control due to the fact I'm using a body control module. The XLR steering column cruise switch will be fully functional.  

Dimi Terleckyj

• Aug 29, 2013

PeteB said: My wife and I were discussing details of my planned build and she mentioned cruise control. Many times I wished I had cruise in my Cobra, so I'd really like to install in my SL-C. But...how do you do it with the electronic gas pedal? :huh: Anyone do this yet? Click to expand...

Ken - thanks, I'll check that out. Dimi - I'm hoping for an electronic solution, but it not, trying to rig up a cable connection to the throttle pedal is my back up plan. Dakota Digital has a unit with an electric motor rather than vacuum for the servo so I'd probably go with that.  

If it's an electronic throttle then surely it's an option on the ECU as I can't for a second believe no cars with LS3 had cruise control? In the case of the RX-8 (another drive by wire throttle) there are a few extra connectors on the ECU, connect up the correct switch and as long as it's not been disabled by firmware updates[1] you get cruise control. [1] A few people did this then a year or so later Mazda disabled it for all UK models that hadn't had it fitted at build (and I'm not even sure it was an option in the UK).  

As Ken alluded to above, on Corvettes and Camaros with LS3s, the cruise control is part of the body control module, not the engine ECU. However, all the parameters needed for cruise (speed, rpms, etc) are available from the ECU, so I would have thought the aftermarket would have come up with a plug and play cruise control for LS3/7 by now.  

• Nov 6, 2013

There is an available solution. The solution ties into the ground and reference voltage at the DBW pedal. Essentially it tricks the PCM in to thinking you are pressing and releasing the pedal. Check out: brandondist.com they resell a rostra cruise control computer for hot rod / universal applications. Call their rep Joe at 877-402-3944…. part # is 2501848 - $258.08 minus credit for their lever controller - $35.22 credit if you don't use their switch (I found it ugly) You can see the wiring diagram here on page 21. Look at the normally open control switch. http://www.rostra.com/manuals/250-1223Form4565G.pdf You can make your own control switches with two momentaries (accel / decel) and a latching (on / off) Or maybe tie them in to switches on an OEM style wheel.  

• Nov 7, 2013

Doug - thanks for the info, I will check it out.  

PeteB said: Doug - thanks for the info, I will check it out. Click to expand...

BTW - this would be used in the 08+ DBW GM applications which use the e38 PCM (power train control module). (not sure which computer the LS3 crate motors use). Mine (aluminum 6.2L L92) is a take out from a 2008 Escalade. The speed and tach info can be pulled off from the CAN, which are two of the wires on the OBDII plug. Dakota Digital makes a device (STA-1000) which plugs in to the OBDII port and pulls the tach and speed info off of the CAN and outputs a sine wave, which increases frequency linearly vs. speed and engine rpms. Essentially, it emulates the analog tach or speedo signal. If you don't have another speed signal available, you can use that to drive the cruise control computer from Rostra or old school style gauges. I'm using the Dakota device to drive my tach and speedometer, but it has extra outputs. Doug  

Will Campbell

• Nov 8, 2013

Street and performance in Mena, AR, has a system that is designed for the crate GMPP controllers and can be made to work with the XLR column. It's not on their website so you'll have to call but it is available.  

• Jul 17, 2015

Looks like Dakota Digital has a system now: Cruise Control for GM LS Drive-by-Wire Engines  

• Oct 14, 2015

I found this as well ; 250-1881 Cruise Control for GM LS Drive by Wire ETC Engines - The Cruise Control Store  

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• Northern Europe & Baltic Sea

Thinking of going to Moscow?

By scubacruiserx2 , October 11, 2013 in Northern Europe & Baltic Sea

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scubacruiserx2

We thought about it and did it September 21, 2013. We would like to share how we did it and explore options on how to visit this great city.

Because we were staying in St. Petersburg, we chose a "Day Trip".

We found a guide on the internet and contacted her. We asked her the best way and day to visit Moscow. We agreed Saturday would be good and the Sapsan train is the preferred way to travel. We booked our e-tickets for the train on the internet.

The day began early with an accuweather check. It showed brilliant sun all day - in St. Petersburg (1 of only 35 days a year) and rain all day in Moscow. Walking to the Metro station we began the long ride down to the underground train.

The early morning Metro

This is the Moscow train station in St. Petersburg

And here is the Sapsan at rest

After scanning our tickets and a walk through a metal detector ( which we set off) we walked to wagon #3. Showing our passports to the attendant , we were seated by 0630 and ready to ride !

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After we were seated we received this overhead greeting

Russian Railways welcomes you aboard ! We soon found out that every thing would be in Russian first and then in English. Our launch time was reached - and we were off.

Here is some information about the Sapsan

http://www.russiantrains.com/en/page/sapsan-train

As the sun began to rise we saw some fog , but a clear sky just outside of St. Petersburg @ 125 mph.

We settled in for the 4 hour train ride to Moscow.

Appreciate your posting of these visuals in connection with your rail trip to Moscow and back. As noted below, we did this "adventure" in 2008 via the air routes. Keep sharing your nice and interesting visuals. Below are a few of mine showing the "prizes" to be enjoyed in Moscow. Fortunately, we had three days on our cruise stop in St. Petersburg, making this one-day trip work better.

The high-speed train connection does make a big, big difference currently. We did the one-day Moscow trip in 2008 by the air connections. I'll offer up some added background, along with various pro/con factors for your consideration. My wife thought it was lots of money, but she viewed it as very much worth it after completing the trip as a "once in a lifetime" experience.

CON FACTORS : It's a long day! Leave the ship early (greeted by a small welcoming band dockside); get back to the St. Petersburg airport around midnight and back to the ship a little before 1 am. Moscow is a super large city of over ten million people. There has been huge growth in the suburbs of this city during the past decades or so. Traffic and time from the airport to the main downtown takes about an hour, but the train takes your directly into the heart of this large city. Since we had to drive in from the airport, we had a good feel as we traveled into town through the coach windows about the “new Moscow” with its suburban growth, commerce, advertising, capitalism, big box stores, etc.

PRO FACTORS : Moscow has its unique history, sights and sites, from Ivan the Terrible up through Lenin, Stalin and the new Russian leaders of today. After a long ride in from the airport on the outer edge of this large metro areas of 17.3 million (with 10.5 million in the city), we stopped at a new hotel for coffee/tea/break. Then, we rode the Moscow subway and saw a couple of their very unique and artistic stations. Stalin at the time called these stations “People’s Palaces”. This Moscow Metro was first opened in 1935 and now has 182 stations, 12 different lines,187 miles of routes and carries seven million passengers each weekday. It’s the world second busiest subway system. This subway ride offered a good sampling of real life for people who live and work in Moscow. We then saw more key places enroute, including the home of the Bolshoi Ballet, KGB Headquarters, various Stalin-era buildings, etc. Then we went to the Kremlin with its 19 historic towers. WOW, we were really there!

Inside the Kremlin are three key “super stars”. First, was the State Armoury with its spectacular Faberge Eggs, plus so many carriages, crowns, gowns, jewels, etc. Second are the various historic Cathedrals within the Kremlin Walls, plus the Tower Bells, Icon art, etc. This includes the Cathedral of the Annunciation built in the 1480’s and having such spectacular wall murals and icons. Third, was the Great Kremlin Palace with its spectacular reception halls, inlaid wood floors, gold and more gold, fancy ceilings, etc. The Czars were crowned here, plus the current heads of the Russian government, etc. The size and scale of these areas are hard to describe in words, let alone reflect and capture the history that has happened in some of these rooms dating back to the late 1400’s. We have seen lots of great palaces all over Europe, but this is something above and beyond for the eyes, heart and brain.

Then, we saw more building inside the walls of the Kremlin. We went outside of the Kremlin Walls and walked next door to adjoining Red Square, seeing St. Basil’s and the re-done Gum Department Store. Red Square is so historic, especially having grown up seeing the military May Day parades there, visuals of Lenin’s Tomb, etc. Have the words “spectacular” and historic been used too much? Maybe, but it fits for many of these unique places. St. Basil’s was built 1555–1561 on the order of Ivan IV (the Terrible). It was the tallest building in Moscow until the completion of the Ivan the Great Bell Tower (266 feet tall) in 1600 inside the Kremlin Walls. To be able to “CONTRAST” and compare Moscow and St. Petersburg during these three short days adds to the benefits of seeing both of these great Russian capital cities. Each is a very different and special city.

We finished with dinner in the Central Writers’ Club, a one hundred years old mansion made into a restaurant with crystal chandeliers, rich wood panelling, fireplaces, and antique balustrades.

Is one day too short and limited? YES! You can, however, do and see lots in only that one short day. You get a small sampling above. How often do you get to Russia? The Cold War might not come back in full force, but there are going to be increasing and revisited tensions in future years involving Russia and getting access there. They have done this tour many times and have its details down well and timing perfected. Let us know any questions, thoughts or reactions.

THANKS! Enjoy! Terry in Ohio

For details and visuals, etc., from our July 1-16, 2010, Norway Coast/Fjords/Arctic Circle cruise experience from Copenhagen on the Silver Cloud, check out this posting. This posting is now at 120,278 views.

http://www.boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1227923

Walking on the famed Red Square of Moscow. This square separates the Kremlin, as the former royal citadel and the current official residence for Russia's President, from a historic merchant quarter. Red Square is often considered the central square of Moscow and all of Russia, because Moscow's major streets originate from here. The name Red Square comes neither from the color of the bricks nor from the link between the color red and communism. The name came about because of a Russian word that can mean either "red" or "beautiful". This word, per Wikipedia, has the meaning "beautiful", was originally applied to Saint Basil's Cathedral. Then, later, the meaning was transferred to the nearby square. It is believed that the square acquired its current name in the 17th century. Red Square was the leading stage and trade center for Moscow. Ivan the Great decreed that trade should only be conducted from person to person, but later these rules were relaxed and permanent market buildings began appearing on the square. After a fire in 1547, Ivan the Terrible reorganized the lines of wooden shops on the Eastern side into market lines and part of that transitioned into what is now GUM department store that adjoins this famed square.:

St. Basil's sits on Red Square and dates back to its 1555-61 construction on the orders of Ivan the Terrible (Ivan IV). It commemorates the capture of Kazan and Astrakhan and marks the geometric center of the city. This location has been the hub of its growth for Moscow since the 14th century. It was the tallest building in Moscow until the completion of the Ivan the Great Bell Tower in 1600. This church was near destroyed in the 1930’s when Stalin was in control.:

The domes of the historic church inside the walls of the Kremlin:

This is the interior for Moscow's most historic church, Assumption Cathedral or the Cathedral of the Dormition, inside the Kremlin walls. It is the mother church of Muscovite Russia. The church stands on Cathedral Square and was built in 1475–1479 by the Italian architect Aristotele Fioravanti. It was erected on the spot of an older 14th century cathedral of the same name:

The famed KGB (Secret Police) Headquarters in Moscow where many entered and did not exit (alive) during the 1950’s and 1960’s:

Here is a small sampling of the Kremlin Royal Treasures of the Czars: Eggs & Jewels inside the famed State Armoury in Moscow. One of the oldest museums in Moscow, it was established in 1808 and located within the Kremlin Walls. It originated as the royal arsenal in 1508 during when it was in charge of producing, purchasing and storing weapons, jewelry and various household articles of the Tsars. There are ten Fabergé eggs in the Armoury collection (all Imperial eggs). This is the most Imperial eggs, and the second-most overall Fabergé eggs, owned by a single owner. The Trans-Siberian Railway Egg is a jeweled Easter egg made under the supervision of the Russian jeweler Peter Carl Fabergé in 1900 for Tsar Nicholas II of Russia. It was presented by Nicolas II as an Easter gift to his wife. The exterior of the 1900 Trans-Siberian Railway egg is made of onyx, silver, gold, and quartz, and is decorated with colored vitreous enamel. The lid of the egg is hinged, has an overlay of green enamel, and is decorated with inlaid leaves of acanthus. On top of the lid is a golden three-headed eagle in gold with the Imperial Crown. The interior is lined with velvet. A route map of the Trans-Siberian Railway is engraved in silver across the face, with major stations marked by a precious stone, forming a belt around the egg. The egg is supported by three griffins made of gold-plated silver on a stepped triangular base of white onyx.:

Scuba and Terry, thanks for sharing the information and beautiful pictures.

One question... I assume the one day tour is similar to the St Petersburg tours, in that you don't need to obtain a Russian Visa if you are booked through a Russian tour agency?

Scuba and Terry, thanks for sharing the information and beautiful pictures. One question... I assume the one day tour is similar to the St Petersburg tours, in that you don't need to obtain a Russian Visa if you are booked through a Russian tour agency?

Appreciate the nice comments and good question from our friend in Las Vegas. YES , if your cruise is there three days or less . . . A ND . . . you are with a licensed travel/tour firm , then there is no need to do a Russian Visa. You cannot take that one- or two-day train to Moscow and back unless you either have a visa or are with an appropriate such firm traveling with you.

Did a June 7-19, 2011, Celebrity Solstice cruise from Barcelona that had stops in Villefranche, ports near Pisa and Rome, Naples, Kotor, Venice and Dubrovnik . Enjoyed great weather and a wonderful trip. Dozens of wonderful visuals with key highlights, tips, comments, etc., on these postings. We are now at 144,153 views for this live/blog re-cap on our first sailing with Celebrity and much on wonderful Barcelona. Check these postings and added info at:

http://www.boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1426474

The announcements on the train requested turning off phones. We quietly greeted and introduced ourselves (In Russian) to our table mates . It seems that we were the token foreign passengers and we quickly realized that on the train (Like most public transport), people don't usually speak unless they have a question or know one another. Even when they do it's respectful of others privacy with no loud talking or phone calls." I could get used to this" I thought to myself. Reading was the norm and listening to music was socially acceptable. Out came the Eyewitness Travel Moscow and cued Al Stewart's Road to Moscow on the mp3. After a quick nap and a snack we noticed that the movie Moscow does not believe in tears was playing on the TV and people were seemed surprised that we knew the movie.

The next thing we knew, the train was arriving in Moscow !

Exiting the train , we headed for the station.

Irina was waiting for us at the end of the platform and it was starting to rain. " Welcome to Moscow and it's weather" she said. " Nine months of expectations and three months of disappointment" she remarked. We headed to the Metro for a tour.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_Metro

As you can see , at 11 in the morning and we still had an empty Metro. Saturday or Sunday is the way to tour Moscow with a minimum of crowds

The first station that we visited was Komsomolskaya which is named for the Communist Youth League

Here is a mosaic from the ceiling

And at the end of the station was comrade Lenin

The Kievskaya Station is dedicated to the friendship between Russia and the Ukraine and is named after it's Capital - Kiev

It features idealized mosaics in the Soviet realism style

The Ukraine was the bread basket of the Soviet Union so agriculture and handicraft is displayed prominently in it's mosaics.

Because it is on the ring line #5 , it connects with #3 and #4 line and can get very busy.

Desertbelle

Thank you for these wonderful reviews. We are going to St. Petersburg for two days on the Brilliance next May. We have decided we want to go to Moscow for one of the days....your great photos make me want to go even more now! :D

The train ride of 8 hours (4 hours one way) and only 8 hours in Moscow doesn't sound perfect. Should we look for a tour guide who will take us by plane? Any recommendations? We would not want to undertake this on our own.

Thank you for these wonderful reviews. We are going to St. Petersburg for two days on the Brilliance next May. We have decided we want to go to Moscow for one of the days....your great photos make me want to go even more now! :D   The train ride of 8 hours (4 hours one way) and only 8 hours in Moscow doesn't sound perfect. Should we look for a tour guide who will take us by plane? Any recommendations? We would not want to undertake this on our own.

Congratulations on your upcoming TA and Baltic cruise and thank you for your kind comments. We did a TA in April of 2009 , followed by a 10 day stay in St. Petersburg. It's really a great time for the weather. Going to Moscow from St. Petersburg on a 2 day stay is going to be an either/ or proposition. Unless you can do a post cruise stay , it will be either Moscow or St. Petersburg . If its your first visit to Russia , we would recommend that you stay in St. Petersburg. It will save you travel time and money and there is more than enough to do in 2 days. If you decide on Moscow , many of the cruise ship offer this trip. We don't normally use or recommend the ship's tours but Moscow would be an exception. Few if any private tours offer this option for 2 days. If you chose to DIY with a Visa you could fly and meet the guide in Moscow and stay overnight. The problem with a 2 day stay is that Sapsan leaves before your ship arrives in port on the first day and arrives after your ship leaves on the second day. A more radical plan that we considered was to jump ship (With the Captain's permission) with a Russian Visa and stay longer in St. Petersburg / Moscow. Because we wanted more time in Russia , we cancelled our post TA Baltic cruise and just stayed in St. Petersburg.

Our last Metro stop before entering Red Square was Ploshchad Revolyutsii (Square of the Revolution). The hall contains life size sculptures of 'everyday people' who made The Revolution and the Metro possible.

Rubbing the nose of this border guards dog is said to bring good luck. I was amazed to see how many people touched this dogs nose after we stepped away.

This last 'every day person' is Lyudmila Pavlichenko who was credited with 309 kills as a sniper during WWII.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyudmila_Pavlichenko

Upon leaving the Metro station we were greeted by a steady rain and it was time to pop the umbrellas. After entering through The Resurrection Gate we stopped to take a picture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_Gate_and_Chapel

And turning around , there is was - Red Square ! I felt like like Dorothy opening the door in OZ. All of my childhood fears of ICBM rockets , goose stepping troops , 1 PM air raid sirens on Saturday , bomb shelters and duck and cover drills at school flooded my memory! Focusing on the task at hand , I had to learn to shoot pictures with one hand while holding an umbrella with the other. The first picture is Marshal Zhukov , a war hero

mounted on a horse , in front of The Historical Museum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgy_Zhukov

Kazan Cathedral was consecrated in 1636 by Prince Pozharsky and stood for 300 years until Joseph Stalin destroyed it in 1936. This faithful reconstruction was completed and consecrated in 1993.

There was a sea of umbrellas watching the changing of the guard at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. I could only get a picture by holding the camera overhead. If you look carefully, you can see his rifle beneath his raincoat.

The crowd thinned as they quickly marched away

But I sprinted ahead to capture a video clip

It was raining harder so we headed for GUM in hopes that the rain would abate.

GUM (pronounced goom) was the name given to this building after the Revolution in 1921. It was built in 1893 and currently has over 1000 shops. A banner proclaims 120 years.

This was one of my favorite photos of our trip. Watching a game of Bridal tug of war.

Maybe they were here shopping for this Mother In Law Cake. It features poisonous mushrooms on top ( I think they are sugar but didn't try them ).

We moved on to Yeliseev's Gastronom. The original store is in St. Petersburg.

http://russiapedia.rt.com/prominent-russians/business/grigory-yeliseev/

This is their souvenir shop

With no sign of the rain stopping it was time to pop the umbrellas and head out to Red Square. The square is about 500 yards long.

The small platform in front of St. Basil's is called The Lobnoe Mesto. It is where the Tsar and patriarch would address the people at various times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobnoye_Mesto

Even in the rain and overcast skies the cathedral is striking !

To the right of the photo is The Savior's Tower. It was the main entrance to the Kremlin and stands 230 feet tall.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spasskaya_Tower

We thought we would go inside of St. Basils to dodge rain and see what the interior looked like. Here's the porch.

Fancy doors

Iconostasis

And here is a view of Red Square with everything labeled

Wow! What else can be said. The photos and your trip are amazing! We have booked a Baltic cruise for June, 2014. We had not considered going to Moscow and after reading your blog, we are still not. BUT if we ever are lucky enough to come back sometime, it will definitely be on our TO DO list! Thank you for sharing the pics, vids and memories!

Jim and Pam

Hi: I am new to CC and we are going on our first cruise in June 2014 with Crystal Cruises. Scuba - I would like to find out more about your Moscow trip - not sure how one goes about emailing here, but could you please email me at [email protected] ?

Welcome to Cruise Critic ! We are honored to be your first post. Don't be afraid to ask questions and browse the threads on CC. They are many experienced people willing to help and share with your upcoming trip. We are emailing now.

Wow! What else can be said. The photos and your trip are amazing! We have booked a Baltic cruise for June, 2014. We had not considered going to Moscow and after reading your blog, we are still not. BUT if we ever are lucky enough to come back sometime, it will definitely be on our TO DO list! Thank you for sharing the pics, vids and memories!   Jim and Pam

Hi Jim and Pam, how was the Fall in Michigan this year ? DW is a Michigander and we met in Michigan. We love spending the fall there. Congratulations on your Baltic cruise. We fell in love with St. Petersburg when we visited there on our 2006 cruise. You will have 2 full and enjoyable days there. Is it possible to do a post cruise stay in Moscow or St. Pete. ? We wished that we did when we first went because there a lot that we missed and wanted to see things at our own pace. It would be much quicker and cheaper to fly from Copenhagen than another transatlantic flight from Michigan. If you have not seen our thread on St. Petersburg - you may want to check it out.

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1775172

In front of St. Basil's Cathedral is a statue of a butcher Kuzma Minin and Prince Dmitniy Pozharskiy. When Moscow was occupied in 1612 by the Polish Army , they raised a volunteer group to repel the invaders.

To me, the most amazing church in Moscow is The Cathedral of Christ the Savior.

After Napoleon invaded Russia in 1812 , the strategy of retreat and destroy (scorched earth) was employed by Russia to allow Napoleon to enter Moscow. He found it in ruins - burned by the residents. When winter arrived on October 19, Napoleon began the long retreat to France. Along the way with no food , the winter and the Russian people attacking , the French troops were decimated. 600,000 troops had entered Russia and less than 60,000 left alive. To celebrate the victory Tsar Alexander ordered the Cathedral built to thank Christ for the victory.

In 1931 Joseph Stalin blew up the cathedral to build a skyscraper - The Palace of the Soviets , that would be taller than The Empire State Building. It would feature a giant statue of Lenin on top. The plans were abandoned when Germany invaded in 1941. After the war , it became a giant pool when construction was needed for housing. It was rebuilt beginning in 1995 , and was completed in 2000.

There was a crowd at the door and we waited in the rain and cold. It was beautiful inside (no pictures allowed). We stayed about an hour and the crowd had left and we took the second picture in the rain. A quick Metro ride to the train station and we said goodbye to our guide Irina.

http://www.newbyzantines.net/byzcathculture/christsavior.html

We returned to St. Petersburg on the Sapsan 1st Class. It included dinner , a drink and internet connections. The internet only works with a Russian phone service - so it did not work for us. The chairs reclined , so we got a nice nap after a long day.

Hi Jim and Pam, how was the Fall in Michigan this year ? DW is a Michigander and we met in Michigan. We love spending the fall there. Congratulations on your Baltic cruise. We fell in love with St. Petersburg when we visited there on our 2006 cruise. You will have 2 full and enjoyable days there. Is it possible to do a post cruise stay in Moscow or St. Pete. ? We wished that we did when we first went because there a lot that we missed and wanted to see things at our own pace. It would be much quicker and cheaper to fly from Copenhagen than another transatlantic flight from Michigan. If you have not seen our thread on St. Petersburg - you may want to check it out.   http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1775172

Ok, so now that I spent hours looking at and reading your posts, I see why you suggest a post tour. There is no way to see everything in only 2 days. But thank you so much for your information on SPB. We are really looking forward to our visit and want to get the most out of it.

We had snow flurries today in Michigan. Our fall was pretty short which means winter will be pretty long. We will survive though because we have 2 cruises to look forward to... Caribbean in February and the Baltic in June!

Thanks again for the great photo review and tips! I'll keep reading...

Ok, so now that I spent hours looking at and reading your posts, I see why you suggest a post tour. There is no way to see everything in only 2 days. But thank you so much for your information on SPB. We are really looking forward to our visit and want to get the most out of it.   We had snow flurries today in Michigan. Our fall was pretty short which means winter will be pretty long. We will survive though because we have 2 cruises to look forward to... Caribbean in February and the Baltic in June!   Thanks again for the great photo review and tips! I'll keep reading...   Jim

It sounds like a couple of great cruises coming your way. The Western Carib. is our most common trip cause we dive in all 4 ports. It's a great way for you to beat that long winter ! My wife's sister (from Bay City) does a girl cruise every winter to beat the cold and avoid the Spring breakers. We would encourage you to prioritize in St. Petersburg - you won't get to see it all in 2 days so pick the best for you. Please know your camera well before you visit ! The sites will come fast and furious so you want to catch them all. I had some new lenses and made some rookie mistakes and muffed some good shots ! If we can answer any questions - give us a holler. Joe

Thank you for your great report and photos! We will be in St. Petersburg for 3 days next June on Legend of the Seas. I arranged private tours in St. Petersburg on days 1 and 3, and to Moscow on day 2 - all with Alla Tours. I previously visited St. Petersburg in 2005, and am especially looking forward to visiting Moscow this trip.

Good to know that Nancy has these great Russian locations on her future, upcoming list. That assumes she survives her earlier “down under” visit, Jan. 20-Feb. 3, 2014, Celebrity Solstice sailing, departing Sydney, going from Australia to Auckland/NZ doing 14 days on this ship we loved in the Med in June 2011. Nancy will be "riding" with us on this Aust-NZ cruise. Will share more on Russia with Nancy while we are sailing on this early 2014 adventure.

For details and visuals, etc., from our July 1-16, 2010, Norway Coast/Fjords/Arctic Circle cruise experience from Copenhagen on the Silver Cloud, check out this posting. This posting is now at 123,372 views.

Sounds like the perfect plan NancyIL ! Maybe something old and something new in St. Petersburg and something Red in Moscow! Did anyone watch Miss Universe in Moscow ? We enjoyed seeing the locale shots at night - something that we missed on our day trip. It also confirmed what we observed when we were there. Moscow like St. Petersburg has the majority of it's main sites located in a very small area. Catherine's Palace , Peterhof and Moscow require an amount of travel time equal or greater than the time spent there. There is the additional cost to Moscow as well. But it's great that you have 3 days and have seen some of St. Petersburg before so it made your decision easy. If you look at the map of Moscow you will see that most of the sites are very close together

and can be seen in a day, but Petersburg requires several days or more for maximum enjoyment.

Red Square and The Kremlin are next to each other and , in the lower left corner, is The Cathedral of Christ the Savior - all within walking distance.

We will be taking the Sapsan from Moscow to St. Petersburg next summer. Is there much of a difference between first class and coach? We're booked in coach as the TA says there's not all that much difference for the money. Also, do you have any opinion on whether to ride on the left or right, facing forward, headed to St. Petersburg? I want to get the best views.

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